Regarding Terms of Service and Bots

JoelJoel Member, Administrator, Moderator, Boss Fight
[Joel: Hey everyone. I've started a new thread here so things can be discussed with a bit more focus and civility. Please be mindful of your posts, personal attacks are not permitted against anyone for any reason.]

EJ:

Wow. The team gets a 3 day weekend and a 15 page post around potential ToS violations using automated user interactions ("bots").

Let's wade in to this.

In the past, our focus has been on violations revolving around modifying gameplay via memory or application hacks. For example, distorting the outcome of a battle and similar.
We have and continue to identify any situation such as this - and it almost always ends in a severe actions taken on the offenders.

What is being discussed here is using automation on top/in addition to the application to model and automate/repeat player interactions.
The use of "bots" is against ToS - the context directly references services, and specifically mentions forums and similar - but it also applies to automating the game.
Is it the same as hacking? No. It doesn't distort the outcome of game logic. The automated actions still require necessary resources like Stamina and Raid tickets.
Does that make it ok or acceptable? No. Many aspects of games like Dungeon Boss are balanced in terms of engagement and time taken to complete - expecting the player to be present and controlling the actions of the game.

So why haven't we taken action on "botting" thus far like we have "hacking"?
All the evidence that has been presented was/is secondhand - while we can investigate potential violations based on player-provided evidence, we cannot take action solely on this type of evidence.
Botting is far more subtle to detect (as it does mimic normal player behavior) and has taken us some time to build metrics that can definitively identify it. (Note for players who have or are contemplating using "botting" - we can and have been tracking it)
Most of this type activity stems from using Android emulators on computers, not from actual devices - some people legitimately use these emulators, so we have been hesitant to take the quickest action to prevent it, e.g. disable emulator usage.

So where do we go from here?
Now that we detect it internally through metrics and are able to build a body of evidence that isn't secondhand - we need to determine the penalties involved.
This can/will range from disqualification of rewards from competitive activities such as PvP Seasons, Crown Tournaments, and Guild Games once evidence is established - ranging from an entire guild (if it is widespread) to individual players (specifically identified).
We are not considering permanent bans at this time, but certainly lengthy temporary bans in addition to the above disqualifications are currently being considered.

That said, as we've established before - we won't discuss actions taken in any detail other than "actions were taken".

If any player or guild officer/leader wants to reach out for individual clarification - please PM me. As of yet, actions have not been taken.
Joel | Community Manager | Boss Fight Entertainment
www.bossfightentertainment.com
Tagged:
«13456

Comments

  • @Eej great answer, as always. Thank you for clarifying. I'm glad to know you intend to take action against players/guilds who are using bots and I think the solutions you're proposing are quite fair.

    I do have one question, however. I understand that you were unable to detect bots in the past but you seem to indicate that you've been able to monitor their activity for some time now. Why have you not already penalized players (no matter what guild they're in - not targeting UW specifically with my question)? Why wait for a mini-scandal to break out on the forums?
  • I would say info on how the bot works in game would of helped to make detection programs.
  • Gotta ban 'em all
  • The evidence before the court is
    Incontrovertible, there's no need for
    The jury to retire.
    In all my years of judging
    I have never heard before
    Of someone more deserving
    Of the full penalty of law.
  • Again we don't use bots! If we did don't you think since they can detect it we would have gotten in trouble if we used it! Devs can go through my account with a fine tooth comb. I have nothing to hide!
  • You moderators need someone who is immune to holidays.
    9807918
  • In my opinion members of The Underworld who leave the guild would make a strong statement that they disapprove of the use of bots. I'd also encourage others to consider not joining The Underworld in the future in support of fair play.
  • KangKang Member
    I think everyone is missing the bigger picture here. UW has developed a super bot that will later evolve into a conscious super machine that decides humanity is not necessary. The super machine will proceed to terminate all humans deemed unnecessary for the day-to-day maintenance labor that the UW bot machine requires.
  • From what I understood from the moderators, botting is not equivalent to hacking, but is unacceptable form of game play. And also from what I understood from "so where do we go from here" is that they've collected evidence that is not second hand from players, and still determining the course of actions that haven't been taken yet. So until then "some" if not all underworld members are really not cleared yet. Until then ...
  • momdukz wrote: »
    RainSong wrote: »
    In my opinion members of The Underworld who leave the guild would make a strong statement that they disapprove of the use of bots. I'd also encourage others to consider not joining The Underworld in the future in support of fair play.

    Thank goodness the moderators disagree. Read the first post.

    I didn't see anything in that post about the moderators telling people not to leave Underworld.
  • **** new thread ruined the fun I was having replying to all the posts in the old ones.


    If I can't have fun in the game, at least let me have fun on the forum....
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited February 22
    @momdukz

    Listening to you constantly spout the same repeated lies is honestly hilarious. It's like getting to watch Trump speeches all over again. Anubis all but admitted to botting in the original thread where he jumped around the TOS trying to convince everyone it wasn't against the rules (Yes not all of you, but some of your members 100% do). Those screenshots were DEFINITELY not spoofed. I would be surprised of Booger even knows how to do that. I certainly would not be able to.

    Just drop it. Seriously NOBODY believes you. Also you are wasting your time, because the only opinion that matters are the developers and what you are saying will have zero impact on their decision. They clearly did NOT say you were all innocent. They merely stated they did not have conclusive evidence yet, and were still deciding appropriate punishment. And since when did not being found "guilty" imply innocents?

    I honestly don't even care if you do bot. You're probably watching it run right now as you type this drivel. I just find it annoying that you so redundantly repeat the same mantras you've been spouting all weekend. Give it up. I doubt anything will come from this as it is incredibly hard to prove, so it's easier if you just let it lie.

    Edit: Looks like the post I was replying to got deleted. It doesn't really matter to me either way. Like I said, I don't even care if you're botting.
    Post edited by MattCauthron on
  • This is another example of how The Underworld is trying to "manage" the situation.

    Again, please read through the original post as well as the moderators response and decide for yourselves what you believe and if this is a guild that you would be proud to join.
  • Now where did I put my popcorn I have a feeling this is going to be another 15 pages
  • B00gersugarB00gersugar Member
    edited February 21
    No need to cheat but made a program designed to play a game for them and made is so only UW members could use it.
  • momdukz wrote: »

    I reread the moderators statement yet again and can not locate where it advises that data or evidence has been collected on members of The Underworld. I believe it states that they have the ability to do this and they will be monitoring and reviewing.

    We in The Underworld have no issue with this. We are a guild of adult professionals who can afford to be the #1 guild and have no need to "cheat". No member has resigned or intends to. Our wait list is long and openings are rare.

    I truly hope you have a wonderful evening

    Nothing directly was stated, true, but it was implied that the original complaint by booger led to them developing metrics designed to spot bot usage, and that these metrics are now functional. It's not unreasonable to conclude that they tested those on certain individuals in a certain guild.

    More to the point, the Booger screen shots and the Anubis dancing strongly suggest that one or more individuals in the guild used bots, tho as I said, I'm not especially concerned over it. However, since eej has essentially said any further use of such things is explicitly prohibited, and punishable, I expect that any UW member who had used such- even had they justified it as allowed- now knows better and, like they good citizens they are, will cease..

    Problem solved.

    Now y'all can stop being aggressively and arrogantly defensive and go back to being pleasant and occasionally funny.
  • Zodiac4EVA wrote: »
    Occasionally?

    bvs is only funny 98% of the time.

    The rest of you aren't quite there.
  • danac wrote: »

    (...) but it was implied that the original complaint by booger led to them developing metrics designed to spot bot usage, and that these metrics are now functional.

    Where was that implied?

    Honest question. I just don't see it and I'm curious.
  • momdukz wrote: »
    danac wrote: »
    momdukz wrote: »

    I reread the moderators statement yet again and can not locate where it advises that data or evidence has been collected on members of The Underworld. I believe it states that they have the ability to do this and they will be monitoring and reviewing.

    We in The Underworld have no issue with this. We are a guild of adult professionals who can afford to be the #1 guild and have no need to "cheat". No member has resigned or intends to. Our wait list is long and openings are rare.

    I truly hope you have a wonderful evening

    Nothing directly was stated, true, but it was implied that the original complaint by booger led to them developing metrics designed to spot bot usage, and that these metrics are now functional. It's not unreasonable to conclude that they tested those on certain individuals in a certain guild.

    More to the point, the Booger screen shots and the Anubis dancing strongly suggest that one or more individuals in the guild used bots, tho as I said, I'm not especially concerned over it. However, since eej has essentially said any further use of such things is explicitly prohibited, and punishable, I expect that any UW member who had used such- even had they justified it as allowed- now knows better and, like they good citizens they are, will cease..

    Problem solved.

    Now y'all can stop being aggressively and arrogantly defensive and go back to being pleasant and occasionally funny.

    Dana... it was a 3 day weekend... the gorgon/reptile reworks do not work. I have a feeling their metrics detection system did not crop up over this. You are still awesome

    No, booger submitted this to them a while ago. iirc weeks.
    I could be totally off base here, but I can just imagine them devoting a huge chunk of development time of late to developing these metrics instead of things like reptiles or engaging game play OR FIXING PVP!!!!

    It might be equally true that they've been concerned about bots for much longer.

    In any event, my chest is ready, so I can continue annoying and undervalued BD skin quest, for a paltry few gems I desperately need.

  • @momdukz this is not really about waiting lists or how "rare" it is to have openings in your guild, and to be honest, there's a lot of top guilds in here not just The Underworld, that being said I'm just pointing out what the developers said from the point "where do we go from here" section that everything is still under review and that there'll be no permanent bans but some type of sanctions I guess after they've finished their investigation. So until such time, it's really up to the developers hands.
    You have a good evening ✌
  • JS1891JS1891 Member
    edited February 22
    Okay then if that's the case, you won't have anything to worry about. And thanks I'm having an excellent night. You do the same
  • LoveChawpLoveChawp Member
    edited February 22
    Honestly it's likely not just UW. Creating a script on an emulator to play the game on loop is pretty common knowledge/simple. Hope DB shuts this down sooner rather than later though the damage is likely done. Easy to do well on a guild games that requires grinding the same level over and over again with that kind of trick, and until they get a handle on it, those types of repeatables won't be an option for subsequent GGs.
  • I am a proud member of UW and don't understand the hate. I have never used bots and to the best of my knowledge no one in UW has used them to gain a competitive advantage. Our guild busted its b.... and spent a lot of money trying to keep up with the other guilds in the last guild games. If bots were being used, I would have been made aware. We ended up far behind the leading guild. Maybe if you enjoy a witch hunt, you should not just stop at burning UW players. I suggest everyone should stop picking nose boogers and just enjoy the game. The hate on the forum is a real downer. Leave the catching of cheaters to BF and stop accusing other players on the forum. If you think you have knowledge of cheating, send a PM to a BF employee or a message to support.
  • Another game ruined by bots. That's wonderful. If anybody thinks this can be stopped, think again. Many have tried and all failed but good luck big fish
  • ratlhed wrote: »
    Another game ruined by bots. That's wonderful. If anybody thinks this can be stopped, think again. Many have tried and all failed but good luck big fish

    If you've been enjoying the game since you started playing... I can assure you that you will still be able to enjoy the game. These bots (referring to anyone using an auto run script here, not specifically UW) will most likely have zero impact on your game experience.
  • .
    bvs72 wrote: »
    I am a proud member of UW and don't understand the hate. I have never used bots and to the best of my knowledge no one in UW has used them to gain a competitive advantage. Our guild busted its b.... and spent a lot of money trying to keep up with the other guilds in the last guild games. If bots were being used, I would have been made aware. We ended up far behind the leading guild. Maybe if you enjoy a witch hunt, you should not just stop at burning UW players. I suggest everyone should stop picking nose boogers and just enjoy the game. The hate on the forum is a real downer. Leave the catching of cheaters to BF and stop accusing other players on the forum. If you think you have knowledge of cheating, send a PM to a BF employee or a message to support.

    When BVS speaks seriously, intelligent people should listen.
«13456
This discussion has been closed.

© 2015 Big Fish Games. Inc., Big Fish, the Big Fish logo, and Dungeon Boss are
trademarks of Big Fish Games, Inc., used with permission www.bigfishgames.com