Guild Summit 4 Summary - March 11th, 2017 (partial)

EejEej Member, Administrator, Moderator, Boss Fight
edited March 15 in General Discussion
Hi all,

This last Saturday , we convened the 4th guild summit where topics are discussed between myself and various guilds' leaders and stakeholders.
  • A summary of each summit (going forward, and post-dated older ones as possible) will be posted by the Monday after.
  • For this current summary, I'm still going through the entire log (about 100 pages) to summarize each topic with the key points and expected actions.
  • This additional information will be added by end of day TUE March 14th (tomorrow).
  • Summit attendees, please feel free to share your thoughts, observations, and impressions.

Topics covered:
  • Daily Quest Changes - what happened, key takeaways like effort to do crown quests needs to be parity
  • Matchmaking - specifically since THU March 9th had changes to better "load-balance" frequency of being attacked regardless of recent activity
  • Upcoming PvP Seasons systemic changes - around re-introducing E/M/H choices, no "free for all" League matchmaking, etc.
  • Recent Event feedback - amount of time required, not being able to use own heroes, and a discussion about setting event standards
  • Rapid Fire Q&A on other topics by participants

Summary
Daily Quest Changes
  • Daily Quest revamp released earlier than intended thus unintentionally pre-empting the planned opportunity for the community to preview and give feedback of our core intent:
  • The goal was that completing the 10 dailies should take around 30min - and not be a huge time sink - it's meant to reinforce the "core loop" (activities in the game) to players.
  • Planned revision (eta ASAP) to Daily quests tied to Crowns to not require any more effort than in the previous daily quest content (We’re working to make this change)
  • Evaluating daily quests that require resources (like Craft or Upgrade) and their rewards – idea is to motivate players less familiar with the systems to use them so they need to reward comparable value (if not same materials)
  • Evaluating Crown “buffer” – such that a guild member can earn ~35 crowns/day, still capped at 210 a week, such that they could make up a missed day
  • Ensure that Gem rewards from daily quests (at a mininum) are equal to before, as a NET gain - not just rewards
  • Evaluating a daily tower quest that does have 25 gems as a return to celebrate what the previous daily quest did.

Matchmaking update on frequency of attack issues
  • On THU 3/9, a change was made to better “load balance” players who are attacked – no longer based on inactivity
  • Initial feedback from some community members that were being attacked/offered too frequently is that issues were resolved in this regard
  • Further matchmaking changes will be part of a proposed larger PvP Seasons update (described below)

PvP Seasons Changes
  • We are still finalizing details, but wanted to get initial feedback on some of the areas of the proposal – to ensure we’re addressing larger concerns, here are the key points:
  • Re-introducing the E/M/H selection (left-to-right) choice of opponents
  • This will be based on Level and a Power Rating calculation of a subset of each player’s roster – not the current Defense team
  • Trophy win/loss and base rewards (Honor/Gold) will be adjusted based on the selection – exact ratios will be fixed unlike E/M/H PvP before PvP Seasons
  • Illustrative example (not final numbers): if your League would grant 160 Trophies on a (H) choice, (M) would be 80, and (E) would be 40 – still reviewing exact ratios
  • How this affects Win Streak count / behavior is still under review
  • Re-evaluating Power Rating contributed by Runes and Epics to ensure their contributions are more in-line with what they actually contribute to the Hero
  • Removing “Free for all” Leagues – all player levels can reach Legend I
  • Any rewards, such as Runes, that are limited by level will be level appropriate – e.g. Level 20s can’t get Superior Runes
  • Top 100 will be rebranded Boss 100 and will be level-restricted to the same threshold that can attack/be attacked by Level 70 players - ~66-70 (exact ranged is still being evaluated)
  • Evaluating plans to introduce other level range “Top 100” leaderboards and rewards in a later client update (to support viewing/collating multiple leaderboards for Seasons) – this will not occur in the short term
  • Evaluating less frequent Honor “reset/conversion” rather than at the end of every Season, e.g. every 4 Seasons (monthly) as a schedule – we still intend to prevent long-term hoarding
  • Looking at ensuring “special rewards” like the unique runes are available as limited purchase in Honor shop at significant cost – such that players outside of the Boss 100 can gear up to compete
  • This does not mean we’re removing them as rewards, just not restricting to the smallest set of competitors – although we’re also looking at different distinct rewards for Boss 100 that aren’t necessarily potency
  • In the summit I stated we’d be posting further details on the changes either MON/TUE – but we’re still finalizing initial plan details. We will post a feedback thread this week with more details but it will be later than MON/TUE.

Recent Event Feedback
  • Don't make events where you can’t use your heroes if they are better
  • Time commitment (even with generous rewards) – too grindy and too much per day
  • If we make a "hero development" event - we need something for people who have those heroes already maxxed to do in said event other than collect Aether (and/or improve Aether)
  • 1 hour for event activities per day as “core loop”
  • Provide additional activities for those who want to spend more time than that - although these need to be repeatable activities for additional rewards - not bespoke content

Q&A Highlights
  • There were quite a few specific questions – here are a few of the highlights
  • Evaluating global daily reset at a standardized hour - e.g. everyone resets at the same hour, not based on local timezone
  • Opportunities to acquire more of the scarce Rune/Epic resources like Pyre Embers
  • A Pve content update is in the plan but not near term – PvP Seasons and then Guild improvements are the current focus
  • Orbs need to be available outside of Challenge mode (e.g. Boss mode, events, special rewards, etc.)
  • Hero sort/filter is in the plan for a later client update but not near term

Last word spoiler: Rocky is getting a buff this week



Post edited by Eej on
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Comments

  • This was my first summit and it is very encouraging to see Eej reaching out to the players to explain what is happening, what went wrong, or just general feedback. That is rare in gaming companies these days. To those that are thinking of quitting take heart, there is a large team of developers and players taking time out of there day for even the smallest chance to improve the game they love. With such dedication from both sides, any problems that come up will be addressed and worked on.

    I persoannly would love to see more story and character/world development. While the talk was about 65% pvp and 35% event, I did pose the question. Eej said it will happen in the future, but not now. I know many of you love story too, but it is not our time I the sun I'm affraid.

    As for you folks here for the carnage and glory of pvp you are in good hands. The players involved in the summits spend countless hours every week in discussions on how to best address this to Eej in the summits. Often, it seems, to be completely derailed because Eej presented a good solution that sounds geared towards making the players happy.

    For those of you scrambling to collect tokens and treasure from the latest events, Eej was genuinely concerned this event was not very well liked when they on the Dungeon Boss side thought it would be. He listened to our thoughts and ideas as to why we don't want to spend 1000's of stamina auto running the normal campaign for the tiniest amount of crystals or how we wished we were not allowed to use our own heros, equipped with epics that we've spent counless hours aquiring and upgrading ;). He took note and said they will make an effort to make sure that the reward is on par with the time commitment.

    So now we wait for Dungeon Boss to make good on those ideas, and after the dust settles to see if there are any smiling faces of those whom have not rage quit. I will continue to attend as best I can, when life does not get in the way, and report on how I think things went.
  • Thanks Eej. Looking forward to it. The info should definitely be available to everyone in the community.

    Personally, I'm lucky enough to have a friend sharing the chat logs on LINE. However, reading a 3 hour convo with multiple contributors is pretty laborious. So a summary will be much appreciated.

    You've invited the summit attendees to share their input; I'm interested to read what they think. Hopefully, once the info is posted, the non-attendees will also be welcome to share their feedback. :)
  • HaxusBloodbaneHaxusBloodbane Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    Hey! How come we haven't had a Guru summit for like... 1... 4... 37... A LONG TIME!
    Wants Control over a Legion of Spiders
    In game Level: 70
    Shared hero: Archangel Emily (Lvl 70), Epic level 12
    Lord of the Fries of The Potato Army Random Mook in Tater Squad
    I'm on Twitter regularly
    2b2r3K.gif
    [/center]
  • This transparency and eagerness to speak to your player base has brought me back to the game. Thank you for that.
    I really missed playing this game every day and I'm excited to read what is to come!
  • I read the full forty page transcript of the summit discussion. Looking forward to what the future might bring.
    9gJSaHl.gif
  • RexobRexob Member
    While I hope the game improves, I am very cautious...The devs have said a lot of "positive" things over the last few weeks, but their actions deviate far from their best intentions.
    IGN & Line: N00BST4R Lv69 Top 50 PS9
  • Rexob wrote: »
    While I hope the game improves, I am very cautious...The devs have said a lot of "positive" things over the last few weeks, but their actions deviate far from their best intentions.

    This is the stance I'm taking. It's been a disastrous 8 weeks. That's a long time to be stuck in this bad place. And seems like the changes they have made thus far have all been bad (save for the raid tickets being bumped to 8).
  • wjvandykewjvandyke Member
    edited March 14
    Most people understand occasional slip ups and bugs. However it's the repeated bugs (fixed, broken, fixed, broken) and inconsistencies that are driving me to the breaking point. I'm excited for the changes, but you can't blame anyone here for being skeptical. I just hope that more effort is given towards getting new features right the first time and fair for all level of players.
  • Eej wrote: »
    Summary has been posted. I want to check to ensure attendees are comfortable with sharing the raw log before attaching or linking it.
    wjvandyke wrote: »
    Most people understand occasional slip ups and bugs. However it's the repeated bugs (fixed, broken, fixed, broken) and inconsistencies that are driving me to the breaking point. I'm excited for the changes, but you can't blame anyone here for being skeptical. I just hope that more effort is given towards getting new features right the first time and fair for all level of players.

    No blame given - trust is earned/lost through actions, words only convey intent.

    Great summary! Hoping these pvp changes reduce the feeling of mandatory grind >.< Either way excited for the ability to do some easier raids again.. constantly having super tough raids is draining!
  • FoozleFoozle Member
    The Easy, Medium, Hard change will be most welcome. It should take care of the issue of completing event quests and competing in guild games when PvP is required. I think the implementation of this might be tricky, so hopefully it will be balanced. I can see a potential to exploit by removing runes from heroes in the "subset list" but then load up runes on only the four defense heroes, plus any you plan to use on offense. I'm guessing the subset list won't be published, so that would help. Also, if the subset list is relatively small and includes most heroes people typically put on offense and defense, then maybe won't be an issue either.
  • EejEej Member, Administrator, Moderator, Boss Fight
    Renly wrote: »
    <snip>

    Where is the balance? Where is the fun? These summits and producer letters are filled with ideas of great potential - but they are also filled with words like still "evaluating," "investigating," and "considering." If these words have the equivalent time frame as DB's infamous definition of "soon," than for a lot of us, the changes are going to come far too late.

    I walking the very thin tight rope - being transparent and ensuring I can set appropriate expectation on turnaround time. In addition, even the most obvious changes do have the potential for rippling effects that were not foreseen. Given the inconsistency of intended improvements recently and historically, we want to ensure we reverse that trend - not continue to repeat it.

    In effect, I am using the words above to indicate "yes, this is the direction of change we want to make - but need to make sure we ensure the change doesn't cause a knock-on or ripple effect somewhere else, and that we scope the changes such that we don't introduce further inconsistency / instability". I'd rather not cut and paste that on every line. ;)

  • bvs72bvs72 Member
    edited March 15
    @Eej, Is anything going to be done about the invincible heroes. I have too many matches ending in a draw because only invincible heroes are left on both sides. It seems that it will only be worse next season with the reward of the super damage reduction runes from this season. These runes are making a lot of my matches take 10 or 15 minutes.

    Maybe you could have percent damage reduction from these runes, decrease by one percent each round of pvp or each time the hero is hit.
  • RenlyRenly Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    edited March 15
    Eej wrote: »
    Renly wrote: »
    <snip>

    Where is the balance? Where is the fun? These summits and producer letters are filled with ideas of great potential - but they are also filled with words like still "evaluating," "investigating," and "considering." If these words have the equivalent time frame as DB's infamous definition of "soon," than for a lot of us, the changes are going to come far too late.

    I walking the very thin tight rope - being transparent and ensuring I can set appropriate expectation on turnaround time. In addition, even the most obvious changes do have the potential for rippling effects that were not foreseen. Given the inconsistency of intended improvements recently and historically, we want to ensure we reverse that trend - not continue to repeat it.

    In effect, I am using the words above to indicate "yes, this is the direction of change we want to make - but need to make sure we ensure the change doesn't cause a knock-on or ripple effect somewhere else, and that we scope the changes such that we don't introduce further inconsistency / instability". I'd rather not cut and paste that on every line. ;)

    Thanks Eej. Just want to take a second to say that I really do appreciate your transparency and the fact that you give up half of your Saturday to have an open and honest conversation with myself and others in the community.

    My only point with my previous post was to try and instill a sense of urgency. I know even the smallest changes will take time and consideration in regards to how they will affect the bigger picture.. I'm just so tired of inviting long time friends into our family's retirement guild. :( :'(

    IGN: Renly
    DB Guru | OG Potato | Rightful Heir to the Iron Throne


    “What I say is that, if a man really likes potatoes, he must be a pretty decent sort of fellow.”
    ― A.A. Milne



  • Skip_HolmesSkip_Holmes Member
    edited March 15
    Not to put words in @Renly 's mouth, but I think part of the frustration isn't just that it takes so much time to fix things...it's that it takes so much time just to get a first pass, poorly thought out, band aid job that inevitably requires months of forum complaints, fine tweaking, and dev reassurances before it even starts to address what the original concern was in the first place.

    We are just going through that again with PvP. Everyone wanted some tweaks to the original system, spent months asking for them, and now has spent further months criticizing a system with a ton of non-working features that were never asked for to begin with.

    We are also going through it with guild quests. Everyone has been asking for some simple variety in guild quests for the better part of a year. Instead of a wider set of quests, we get that plus a seemingly unnecessary redo of gen rewards, time allocation, and overall frustration to go with it.

    Does anyone have any confidence at all that a redo of the combat formulas and stat impact aren't going to end up the same way, with the players having to both discover the bugs and oversights and then also lobby for months to get them addressed?
  • For the love of all that is holy, invite some of the long time dedicated players to test the combat changes prior to release.

    Diablo 3 had an excellent Player test Realm that players could log into with there accounts (they would transfer in a copy of their account) and then play as if real but no changes would take affect on the live servers. I am sure there are many here would love to help out so that what goes live works and the entire player base is not the beta test.
    litespeed
  • DrocasDrocas Member
    For the love of all that is holy, invite some of the long time dedicated players to test the combat changes prior to release.

    Diablo 3 had an excellent Player test Realm that players could log into with there accounts (they would transfer in a copy of their account) and then play as if real but no changes would take affect on the live servers. I am sure there are many here would love to help out so that what goes live works and the entire player base is not the beta test.

    we have asked multiple times and no response

    http://forum.dungeonboss.com/discussion/comment/177575#Comment_177575

    http://forum.dungeonboss.com/discussion/53122/beta-testers#latest
    The EMPIRE :: The Aegis of Athena
    KuK1uXt.png
  • BrazyBrazy Member
    When can we expect the E/M/H changes??
  • Brazy wrote: »
    When can we expect the E/M/H changes??

    Soon?
  • @Zombie8u Soon(TM)*
  • LietoLieto Member
    We need something to change. Last season was worse than the one before and this one will be worse again once the 100 or so usual suspects battle it out with the same 4 or 5 teams... Most of which already had near indestructible heroes in them. Looking forward to those battles so much
  • Thankfully, they've given me zero reason to pursue anything in Legend. No good tokens to collect. I'm sitting this one out.
    9gJSaHl.gif
  • FatCat69 wrote: »
    Thankfully, they've given me zero reason to pursue anything in Legend. No good tokens to collect. I'm sitting this one out.

    Agreed. Bramble has been out for far too long to have his tokens at high priority.

    I feel like the PvP rewards should always be within at least the last three characters released. Would work as a greater motivation for playing PvP.
  • danacdanac Member
    Eej wrote: »


    In effect, I am using the words above to indicate "yes, this is the direction of change we want to make - but need to make sure we ensure the change doesn't cause a knock-on or ripple effect somewhere else, and that we scope the changes such that we don't introduce further inconsistency / instability". I'd rather not cut and paste that on every line. ;)

    I hear they have bots for that.
  • Thanks for the summary, @Eej !

    This is pretty encouraging. You're working on multiple important issues and you definitely seem to be receptive to our feedback. It's all good news, in my opinion.

    I just hope that players (including me) will be able to be truly enthusiastic again about the game. It's hard to come back from weeks of frustrations. That being said, my perspective has definitely improved since I've stopped getting attacked nonstop. That was a huge problem you managed to fix. So I'm keeping an open mind. Please don't disappoint me, DB. ;)
  • NTSRamblerNTSRambler Member
    edited March 17
    @Eej
    bvs72 wrote: »
    @Eej, Is anything going to be done about the invincible heroes. I have too many matches ending in a draw because only invincible heroes are left on both sides. It seems that it will only be worse next season with the reward of the super damage reduction runes from this season. These runes are making a lot of my matches take 10 or 15 minutes.

    Maybe you could have percent damage reduction from these runes, decrease by one percent each round of pvp or each time the hero is hit.

    They did. Now you just have to "finish" three matches win or lose. So now can just sandbag matches and hope the next matchup is more favorable. I don't know about you but I, like a lot of other players, am a masochist so the changes work for me.
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