Hero Update: Rocky

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Comments

  • gmungmun Member
    If you examine my avatar long enough another counter may occur to you.
    Gmun
  • bvs72bvs72 Member
    @Zombie8u - you forgot the third thing. It makes players scramble to decide what new runes to craft. It is all about increasing whale spending.
  • shiggity80shiggity80 Member
    edited March 17
    So would bauble plus rocky give armored folks like near 100% dodge on the first round against ranged attacks?
  • @shiggity80 Nope, either Rocky's dodge buff is broken or the stacking isn't additive
  • NateDoge wrote: »
    @Joel , is the silence effect of Sonic Screech dodgable?

    It is able to be dodged. I was throwing some random (doomed) raids at people to see how the new things work and I did test this.
  • BIGBENBIGBEN Member
    Am the only one to think that this is the worst change in game they never made?
  • pjworldpjworld Member
    So...Are we getting a free rune unequip anytime soon @Eej ? You know... this being a major change and all?

    http://forum.dungeonboss.com/discussion/comment/173281#Comment_173281

    And for goodness' sakes, please make it more than 24 hours. 48 hours ideally. 24 hours is just not enough time to unequip and experiment. Ideally starting today so that we have the weekend to do some play testing :)


  • i'm honestly struggling to put into words how frustrating this change is. One of the many, many complaints of PVP is the randomness of heroes with high dodge...so you guys decide to make a hero that gives everyone high dodge??? Including heroes with OP attack stats?

    what good are the meetings with guild leaders if you don't use it as an opportunity to let them talk you out of ideas like this that will so obviously frustrate your player base?
  • Yea this change makes me sad. I used to have two offensive powerhouses I could use to answer most teams: Viperia or Koros. Depending on the defense I would pick 3 support characters best suited to the defense and go from there. Now Koros is the only answer. Viperia (and everyone else in the game who isn't a dwarf, takumi or hansuke) cannot be relied on to hit anything before you've lost. There are still answers to a lot of these teams but koros is mandatory now.
    centralcommand
  • UofMBish wrote: »
    i'm honestly struggling to put into words how frustrating this change is. One of the many, many complaints of PVP is the randomness of heroes with high dodge...so you guys decide to make a hero that gives everyone high dodge??? Including heroes with OP attack stats?

    what good are the meetings with guild leaders if you don't use it as an opportunity to let them talk you out of ideas like this that will so obviously frustrate your player base?

    It actually would've been significantly less frustrating if it said "+100% dodge". Then I could use it on offense to counter teams that lead off with rocky. But since its +85% there's too much RNG to rely on it when trying to build win streaks. So it becomes an insanely frustrating defensive strategy.
    centralcommand
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited March 17
    UofMBish wrote: »
    i'm honestly struggling to put into words how frustrating this change is. One of the many, many complaints of PVP is the randomness of heroes with high dodge...so you guys decide to make a hero that gives everyone high dodge??? Including heroes with OP attack stats?

    what good are the meetings with guild leaders if you don't use it as an opportunity to let them talk you out of ideas like this that will so obviously frustrate your player base?

    It actually would've been significantly less frustrating if it said "+100% dodge". Then I could use it on offense to counter teams that lead off with rocky. But since its +85% there's too much RNG to rely on it when trying to build win streaks. So it becomes an insanely frustrating defensive strategy.

    I think 85% is WAYS better than 25%. 85% I can just read 100% dodge b/c I would never go into a fight planning to land a hit. Now if your only option on offense is using rocky and praying for dodges than that 15% becomes much more frustrating. I think it's necessary however to stop 100% win game breaking offense teams.

    Edit: I do agree that these defenses requiring specifically koros/shade to counter (Almost all of them) is a little silly though. I'm having a lot of fun but if you were a lower level without these heroes, rocky defenses are suddenly impossible. That doesn't sound fun at all.
  • Before this change to Rocky, his 1st ability used to give himself haste, so that he would immediately get a 2nd turn.

    Now after this change, when I use his first ability, it goes to the next hero.

    Is this intended? @Joel @Eej
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited March 17
    Eej wrote: »
    It is intended that Rocky does not haste himself.

    On a larger note - the balance team just met to convene on Rocky. The intent was to provide Nature heroes with an extra attack and some avoidance (Dodge) and that Rocky and non-Nature heroes would get avoidance. Thus making a Rocky a new, useful option for both defense and offense strategies.

    However, in our haste (no pun intended) to ensure that this was a useful option - we missed two considerations.
    1. First, Dodge is negated by Freeze - we expected that to be a viable strategy - however, the Krexx/Reptile synergy completely invalidates this.
    2. Second, the high Dodge bonus on Haste was meant for single target application - the only other normal group application (Zurk and Goblins) is largely non-impactful because the Haste is triggered by a Normal speed attack - NOT a Fast speed buff that allows a Defense team to utilize the benefit until they attack.

    Rather than letting this sit over the weekend or until we improved other counters (like Perfect Swing heroes) - we want to address this immediately.

    The plan is to significantly reduce the Dodge bonuses on both the Haste and Evasion components of the ability - note: these reductions will be specific to Rocky's ability (not global Haste/Evasion effects).

    Also, since people would have "runed" Rocky (and likely Krexx and Viperia) differently given the original bonuses given by Rocky - we're also going to be turning on a free Rune-equip in conjunction with this change.

    I'll update once we're closer to the release change.

    Eej reducing the dodge mechanics of his abilities just turns those teams into an RNG clown pasta fiesta? At 85% at least you can plan on them dodging. At 50% or even 30% most players are back to rolling dice and praying for hits to land. Surely that's not the direction you want pvp to go.

    Edit: @Eej Also if you had vetted these changes against a small group of the top pvpers (Jax/Zombi ect) they could have told you these problems almost immediately. Hearthstone shows their newest content to top level professional players before releasing it to help with balance issues. It could potentially go a long way with the DB team too! Reptiles countering freeze is a strategy people have been using for a while now against valkin!
  • EejEej Member, Administrator, Moderator, Boss Fight
    edited March 17
    Dodge is/was never meant to be a guarantee - avoidance is extremely powerful compared to mitigative and/or ablative defense.

    Yes, this is similar to other instances of Dodge where there is a random factor - the difference is that by not making "almost guaranteed", there are at least other options that can be applied.

    Unlike Dodge% innate to heroes - it is transient. It does make the first round unpredictable, but given the current "alpha strike" dominance in meta - I would think this was a good thing.

    The larger issue to address with Dodge/RNG is Dodge% that is ever-present on heroes - meaning the entire combat remains highly unpredictable and that is the frustrating aspect of RNG.

    Edit: in response to your footnote @MattCauthron, that is certainly compelling way forward.
  • @Eej It really is quiet evident that 0 play testing was done on this. The problem with Dodge on heroes is when the hero is supernaturally good at making their extended life count (like MK) due to high attack rating or so on.
  • DragonDragon Member
    I don't know what to think anymore.

    Rockys buff...is it a buff?
    A buff that will be nerfed within 24 hours?
    Ok, he is fast now.

    Is this another "we are surprised and this was not intended. We just implemented it wrong an it should have never worked this way"?

    Seems my hope is now trying to run away, too.
    But I want to keep it.
  • Eej wrote: »
    It is intended that Rocky does not haste himself.

    On a larger note - the balance team just met to convene on Rocky. The intent was to provide Nature heroes with an extra attack and some avoidance (Dodge) and that Rocky and non-Nature heroes would get avoidance. Thus making a Rocky a new, useful option for both defense and offense strategies.

    However, in our haste (no pun intended) to ensure that this was a useful option - we missed two considerations.
    1. First, Dodge is negated by Freeze - we expected that to be a viable strategy - however, the Krexx/Reptile synergy completely invalidates this.
    2. Second, the high Dodge bonus on Haste was meant for single target application - the only other normal group application (Zurk and Goblins) is largely non-impactful because the Haste is triggered by a Normal speed attack - NOT a Fast speed buff that allows a Defense team to utilize the benefit until they attack.

    Rather than letting this sit over the weekend or until we improved other counters (like Perfect Swing heroes) - we want to address this immediately.

    The plan is to significantly reduce the Dodge bonuses on both the Haste and Evasion components of the ability - note: these reductions will be specific to Rocky's ability (not global Haste/Evasion effects).

    Also, since people would have "runed" Rocky (and likely Krexx and Viperia) differently given the original bonuses given by Rocky - we're also going to be turning on a free Rune-equip in conjunction with this change.

    I'll update once we're closer to the release change.


    No offense guys, but do you not play test this stuff at all? Within minutes of the post about incoming rocky changes one of our guild mates figured out to use Koros, VIP/krexx, and rocky on defense. How did you forget about VIP being immune to freezing? Players had this figured out in their heads, running the game would make figuring it out even easier.

    And I also agree with other posters, having rocky deliver 100% chance to dodge would be miles better than 30-50% chance to dodge. At least with the 100% we know what to expect. There are already enough rng nightmares in pvp (Kira anyone?)...
  • bvs72bvs72 Member
    Eej wrote: »
    ...
    Also, since people would have "runed" Rocky (and likely Krexx and Viperia) differently given the original bonuses given by Rocky - we're also going to be turning on a free Rune-equip in conjunction with this change.

    I'll update once we're closer to the release change.

    @Eej, Can anything be done so that the order all of the heroes in the selection screen does not get re-jumbled whenever runes are changed?
  • EejEej Member, Administrator, Moderator, Boss Fight
    No offense taken, we did and do - but the resultant mistake means the criticism is indefensible.
  • bvs72 wrote: »
    Eej wrote: »
    ...
    Also, since people would have "runed" Rocky (and likely Krexx and Viperia) differently given the original bonuses given by Rocky - we're also going to be turning on a free Rune-equip in conjunction with this change.

    I'll update once we're closer to the release change.

    @Eej, Can anything be done so that the order all of the heroes in the selection screen does not get re-jumbled whenever runes are changed?

    Nope. Hero sorting is a giant black box that no one on planet earth can figure out how it works. It is a insubstantial sentient being that no moral can touch or hope to understand. It just does what ever it wants to do.
  • Zombie8u wrote: »

    Nope. Hero sorting is a giant black box that no one on planet earth can figure out how it works. It is a insubstantial sentient being that no moral can touch or hope to understand. It just does what ever it wants to do.

    Skynet?
  • Reducing the dodge chance will not fix the problem. Koros/krexx/viperia/rocky will still be unbeatable without either massive luck or massive rune advantage. There is no way to counter that opening koros shot unless you have a serious rune advantage. This is everything wrong with pvp taken to 11.The only fix is to make rocky normal speed.
  • rpger001rpger001 Member
    edited March 17
    @Eej You need to remove evasion from Rocky period!!! Any dodge granted to a hero such as Koros or even Viperia means you made a one shot wonder nearly impossible to counter, especially Koros. Throttle down the evasion to 5% is still too much.

    In a different thread on randomness affects in PvP, I advocated for keeping the old level of rng. Not this, this adds to all that is bad about rng in PvP. It is one thing if a dodgy hero like MK or Aria dodges as they are built with dodge as part of their balance. It is quite different if Koros has 20% chance to dodge. If I cannot drench Koros with high levels of certainty, there is not much I can do.

    When I first heard of this change to Rocky, I thought, do these guys even play PvP in their game? I like interesting options but Kai needs perfect swing in order to make Rocky's changes even remotely fun.
    Teal125
  • For what it's worth, Rocky is a decent addition to my low-level team... so maybe the issue is more about the upper levels rather than the concept.
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