Please do not nerf Kira

2

Comments

  • @Brazy

    I think most of those losses were due to shade/MK. That's not really the point though. I care about overall game balance. I see MK and Shade significantly above the average power curve of heroes. This can cause some pretty serious issues with new hero design. Every time you make a new hero you have to ask yourself "Is it better than x, because if it's not than noone will use it". This is of course where power creep stems from, but it's much better to bring heroes far above the power curve back into line than to simply power creep them out of usefulness.

    image

    This is a really good video explaining the issue.
  • BrazyBrazy Member
    @Brazy

    I think most of those losses were due to shade/MK. That's not really the point though. I care about overall game balance. I see MK and Shade significantly above the average power curve of heroes. This can cause some pretty serious issues with new hero design. Every time you make a new hero you have to ask yourself "Is it better than x, because if it's not than noone will use it". This is of course where power creep stems from, but it's much better to bring heroes far above the power curve back into line than to simply power creep them out of usefulness.

    image

    This is a really good video explaining the issue.

    So out of 281 raids you lost 9 times due to MK and Shade. And you think it's a huge issue with those 2? Like I said, you expect to win 100% of the times that's how I see it.
  • I don't think you even watched the video :(
  • nunyanunya Member
    edited April 18
    No one should win all of their battles. A little uncertainty, in the name of dodge, is a good thing. And @MattCauthron, yours is not a quiet voice. ;)
    nunya
  • BrazyBrazy Member
    I don't think you even watched the video :(

    I don't care about the video. Like I said we will always disagree on this
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited April 18
    Brazy wrote: »
    I don't think you even watched the video :(

    I don't care about the video. Like I said we will always disagree on this

    Whelp I can't even begin to explain the issue if you aren't willing to listen. That's fine though. I still respect you as an excellent pvp player! I'm just glad the developers recognize an issue here. If they did not see an issue, they would not be making a change. It's still not even for sure anyways given how poorly the kozar/zen change was received. (I thought those changes were amazing).
  • itirnitiiitirnitii Member
    edited April 18
    We have two different issues being conflated here.

    Is the problem that we are losing a few matches to MK or that we aren't losing enough matches to anything else? A small amount of losses only to MK doesn't speak to why he shouldn't be nerfed, it speaks to how the matchmaking system has failed as a whole.

    The matches are too easy because the system is made too easy. Most of the matchups I play are too easy because once you reach a certain level of power you tend to dwarf your 'hard' opponents not just by strategy but just power alone. If the enemy's koros can't even kill my emily that's not a balance flaw with emily it is a matchmaking flaw. Why am I being paired against players with such weaker runes? I am basically taking a win I don't deserve because it is too easy. By the same token if MK is causing me losses even in matches with the same rune disparity it helps prove he is out of balance. By the same token I am taking a loss I had ought naught to take because of an overpowered hero that ran amuck.

    Bring MK down the power curve where he belongs in line with everyone else and then bring back the challenging matchmaking.
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  • nunyanunya Member
    Or, those losses to shade/Kira were to the few fair opponents. Because, lets face it, most of the current "hard" teams that contain Kira he merely tickles my heroes, including the ones where he should do more damage. :(
    nunya
  • itirnitiiitirnitii Member
    edited April 18
    The easiness problem lies with the matchmaking not the heroes. Before the EMH changes all the opponents at the top end were fairly challenging (pretty much all had op runed shades and mks though) now it's just back to strictly whoever spends the most wins.

    The difficulty of the matches shouldn't revolve around making a hero too powerful over the rest. If the only challenge to be faced is derived from overpowered heroes that is a design flaw. The challenge should come from being evenly matched against fair opponents when all the heroes are evenly balanced in power.
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  • nunyanunya Member
    But with runes, all heroes will never be evenly matched in power.
    nunya
  • itirnitiiitirnitii Member
    edited April 18
    I agree balancing 70 heroes is daunting, there will probably always be one or two superstars over the rest. It is more idealism than anything, but one can dream.
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  • YykkilYykkil Member
    Even though MK is my boy right now (I'm majoring in slang), I'm advocating for him to be nerfed. Giving an argument about 'people who don't know how to counter him' is irrelevant - just because you can consistently win fights against him does not actually mean he doesn't need a balance pass.

    The idea is you want to look at his power relative to other heroes, and adjust accordingly. There are heroes with specific strengths without being unusually potent such as Furnace, Nimriel, Kobal, Pontifex, Leonidus. They are mostly overshadowed by stupidly strong heroes (because their relative strength is overwhelming compared to existing heroes) such as Koros, Shade, MK, and Grog Gnog.
    9807918
  • BrazyBrazy Member
    itirnitii wrote: »
    The easiness problem lies with the matchmaking not the heroes. Before the EMH changes all the opponents at the top end were fairly challenging (pretty much all had op runed shades and mks though) now it's just back to strictly whoever spends the most wins.

    The difficulty of the matches shouldn't revolve around making a hero too powerful over the rest. If the only challenge to be faced is derived from overpowered heroes that is a design flaw. The challenge should come from being evenly matched against fair opponents when all the heroes are evenly balanced in power.

    That's the thing. Matchmaking has been fixed in most people's eyes. Now looking to nerf MK and Shade would be a bad move right now imo
  • @MattCauthron very interesting video! It definitely puts things into perspective. Thanks for sharing.
  • The thing is, other than bugs that need to be fixed (for example, his critting while diseased, which I still consider to be a bug), he's almost never a problem. Ok, his tenacity can sometimes be too much, when his epic is maxed. Bring that down then, make it 10% or even remove it completely. But why does his damage need to be nerfed? I literally never think "a MK is defending this dungeon, I'd better stay away" anymore. I agree that he was a problem, but we have the options to fight this stuff now, and this is coming from someone who isn't​ even top 600 in roster power.

    I just don't want to see one of my favourite heroes nerfed to oblivion simply because people are angry at him. If his AOE damage is reduced (i.e. if his ability to kill those hordes of glass cannon Shades and SBs is taken away), he'll simply become useless. Especially when changes to damage and atk stacking are underway, which will make his Blossom less of a problem anyway. Why do we want more heroes on an already overcrowded bench?
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  • @Alecat97

    I also think they should remove pwn undead for pvp only. It sucks that the entire undead design space is completely nullified by a single hero.

    I think an even better solution is don't allow Pwn undead to work on aoe in PvP. It's important to keep it for PvE some dungeons depend on it but in PvP it wouldn't be unreasonable that his single target abilities still are deadly to undead its the AOE that makes undead teams non-viable.
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  • How about make him a real glass cannon.

    Reduce his hp.
  • 2sk117xcxsab.png

    Now would be a good time to nerf Kira, before they all have two of these equipped.
  • oredithoredith Member
    MK's problem at the lower end (ie, people who are not dealing with people equipped with the best runes) is pretty easy, and it's reminiscent of the changes to Zen.

    simply move his 2nd ability to 1st and 1st ability to 3rd.

    this makes MK a useful counter to the reptile sister shield, as well as take away his ability to 1 shot the entire opposite team before they are able to act.

    if MK is allowed to survive to round 3 on defense, then the attackers deserve to face his whirlwind of death.

    of course, there's still the issue of his tenacity, which could potentially result in him using all 3 abilities by the 1st move of the second round.
  • @Alecat97

    I think if they made any changes it would be to do the following:

    1) Remove tenacity
    2) Lower the damage coefficient on his first ability

    Eej essentially spelled this out at the last summit. I wouldn't expect his dodge to be touched. The issue with MK is it's really just a combination of EVERYTHING that makes him broken. I also think they should remove pwn undead for pvp only. It sucks that the entire undead design space is completely nullified by a single hero.

    TBH I don't know why they added Tenacity in the first place. It was a cool idea, but would be btter on someone who wasn't already used often.
  • danep4danep4 Member
    I'd be happy with his tenacity being taken away
  • danep4danep4 Member
    And you guys know nothing we say will change what they are about to do but in my opinion just taking away tenacity would fix any issues
  • NobodyPi wrote: »
    @Alecat97

    I think if they made any changes it would be to do the following:

    1) Remove tenacity
    2) Lower the damage coefficient on his first ability

    Eej essentially spelled this out at the last summit. I wouldn't expect his dodge to be touched. The issue with MK is it's really just a combination of EVERYTHING that makes him broken. I also think they should remove pwn undead for pvp only. It sucks that the entire undead design space is completely nullified by a single hero.

    TBH I don't know why they added Tenacity in the first place. It was a cool idea, but would be btter on someone who wasn't already used often.

    Tenacity should be on someone like Takumi or Sifu.
  • edited April 20
    All dwarves have a new passive that says "when on a team with King valkin, this hero has tenacity".

    But only if DB promises to never make a fast dwarf.

    [Edit] Could also be a demon team thing whenever they get around to a legendary demon. But again, same promise, no fast demons then.
    [Second edit] Lies. No demons. Too dodgy. Same stupid problem.
    centralcommand
  • Tenacity is an interesting addition to the game, and other than it seemingly being 80% rate in some battles it seems to be pretty bug free.

    Having it tied to a team dynamic sounds like a great solution. Even if they did do the dwarf option a fast dwarf wouldn't be game breaking. Requiring two heroes to be on a team for it to be there seems more reasonable.
  • Alecat97Alecat97 Member
    edited April 20
    Zombie8u wrote: »
    Tenacity is an interesting addition to the game, and other than it seemingly being 80% rate in some battles it seems to be pretty bug free.

    Having it tied to a team dynamic sounds like a great solution. Even if they did do the dwarf option a fast dwarf wouldn't be game breaking. Requiring two heroes to be on a team for it to be there seems more reasonable.

    Or they could turn tenacity into a BD passive that she gives to yellow or rogue allies
  • Alecat97 wrote: »
    Zombie8u wrote: »
    Tenacity is an interesting addition to the game, and other than it seemingly being 80% rate in some battles it seems to be pretty bug free.

    Having it tied to a team dynamic sounds like a great solution. Even if they did do the dwarf option a fast dwarf wouldn't be game breaking. Requiring two heroes to be on a team for it to be there seems more reasonable.

    Or they could turn tenacity into a BD passive that she gives to yellow or rogue allies

    Yellow toons, or all rogues, are the last heroes who need tenacity.

    Black diamond may seem like a lost cause now, but let's wait as see her epic and it's stats before we go buffing her more. With her bonus to crit damage and 25% passive go dodge ranged attacks we could easily end up right back at an overpowered fast yellow hero.
  • HaxusBloodbaneHaxusBloodbane Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    The problem with MK is they buffed him literally right before Epics were announced so his stats were boosted again.

    By the way MK is not an original hero. He is the starting point of new heroes. He was the first hero released after the beta wipe. Originally meant to counter the massive Brom heavy meta.
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  • coneyKconeyK Member
    I think my favorite argument so far has been the "It's not fair to nerf him because I powered him up" one. Like really, do your actually think your personal expenditures should weigh so heavily on the game's balance as a whole?

    Kira is definitely too good at everything. He alone nullifies the presence of several heroes on defense. So in that way, even if he's nerfed to oblivion, I can't feel too bad because we'd be dropping one hero from the meta in order to add several more. But really, if Tenacity is removed (How about we give it to Sifu?) and his Pwn Undead is bumped down a little, I think that'd make him a lot better - as long as the devs also make sure that his dodge is ACTUALLY a hard 25%.

    And I want to take the stab I always take when this kind of thread comes up: Shade. They knew what they were doing with him. They knew what could happen if they gave him 5 purple rune slots. And then they went ahead and made Attack his Epic's primary stat. At that point, the devs had said that they had been developing new heroes and their epics alongside each other. As in, the attack-overdose was definitively a conscious decision.
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