change buffs duration to be linked to hero, not turn

This has been a long known issue as exhibited by Kai+Furnace combo, where furnace basically gets 2 turns of revenge because Kai is a fast hero.

this issue has become more evident (though probably has always existed) with stonefist's epic, and the construct weekend.

with Stonefist's taunt, because the buff is round-based rather than hero based, he effectively has a 3 round taunt on a 5 round cooldown. (this is the same with phemus, though, equally little used hero, so never really been bothered.

if this is indeed intentional, please understand that this creates a VERY undesirable attribute as a "tank" for PVE purposes because not only are you saddled with a slow tank that will let an entire round of attack happen without tanking, but also leaving you exposed for 2 rounds vs. a normal speed tank that would only have one.

the only time the slow tank would be desirable would be in a dungeon where every single mob is slow speed so that you would at least get the true 4 rounds of tanking that's suppose to happen.

Comments

  • edited May 15
    I believe buff duration is linked to hero in most cases (Zen seems to not follow this rule). You seem to be implying the buff ends at the start of the new turn, when in reality it ends right after Stonefist finishes (Which most likely happens to align with the end of the turn).

    In the other example you gave of Kai+Furnace, it is more obvious however. The buff clearly fades after Furnace moves which is what causes the appearance of it lasting two rounds if you have mostly fast heroes.

    I suppose my point is I'm unclear what you are asking. When do you think the taunt should end? Specifically considering that typically a buff ending after stonefist's turn, or at the start of the next round are practically the same in the majority of cases.
  • i guess a timeline approach would be easier to see the problem:

    Fast hero applying buff (ie, Kai + furnace)
    • first round
      • Kai casts wave
      • Furnace taunts
    • second round
      • Kai buffs team with CotD
      • Furnace revenges every attack 2nd round
    • third round
      • furnace revenges every attack from fast heroes or normal heroes that goes before him
      • furnace gets to attack
      • CotD fades from furnace, effectively giving him 2 rounds of revenge

    Slow hero applying buff (ie, StoneFist / Phemus)
    • first round
      • all fast and normal heroes attack without a tank taunt
      • StoneFist taunts
    • second round - first round of active taunts on opponents
    • third round - second round of active taunts on opponents
    • fourth round
      • taunt fades at beginning of round
      • no active taunts on opponent

    because taunt fades at the beginning of the round, NOT when it gets to Stonefist again, it leaves an extra large coverage gap for PVE defense. considering that you're starting off at a disadvantage already with a slow tank, this seems really bass-ackwards.
  • I suppose my point is I'm unclear what you are asking. When do you think the taunt should end? Specifically considering that typically a buff ending after stonefist's turn, or at the start of the next round are practically the same in the majority of cases.
    I get what you're saying in terms of after their turn, vs. start of the round.

    maybe what you're suggesting is that the taunt ends at the end of Stonefist's turn, but the "taunt fades" doesn't show up until the start of the next round, thus APPEARING that it's fading at the start of the next round?

    the response I have for that is to simply run Stonefist through a dungeon. every other tank (normal speed) in the game has a 1 turn lapse in their taunt coverage, stonefist has 2 (and I assume phemus, i honestly haven't checked)
  • I suppose my question is, are you sure it ends at the end of the round and not just at the end of stonefists turn? Like if you taunt with Furnace, does it end at the end of the round if you also have a slow hero or at the end of Furnace's turn.

    I don't know the answer to this for sure, but I would think it is actually ending at the end of the hero's turn.
  • I don't know the answer to this for sure, but I would think it is actually ending at the end of the hero's turn.
    I don't believe that's the case. if you watch the notifications, it happens at the beginning of the next round. this is especially evident when it happens during a room change.
  • edited May 15
    Well either way (In regard to stonefist), wouldn't it be ending at essentially the same time regardless of "start of round" or "after hero turn" simply because Stonefist is last.

    I see the issue you are presenting, but perhaps it is simply an issue with slow tanks. I'm not sure how one would fix this either. The solution I've used in the past is to energy potion and re-taunt on the round I know it will be ending.
  • i guess it's something that can be greatly clarified if we had better tooltips.

    the taunt ability is on a 5 round cooldown. given the "normal" statistics for a taunt, one would assume the taunt would last 4 rounds.

    if the intent is for it to only last 3 rounds, and INTENTIONALLY leaving a 2 round gap, then the discussion is moot, and I'll cede the point.

    however, if the intent is to have 4 rounds of taunt with 1 round of lapse, here's the problem:

    round 1 - taunt last, no active taunt (but counts as 1st round of active taunt)
    round 2 - taunt active, 1st round of taunt (counts as 2nd round of active taunt)
    round 3 - taunt active, 2nd round of taunt (counts as 3rd round of active taunt)
    round 4 - taunt fades from Stonefist AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ROUND.
    (still 4th round) Stonefist now has 2 turn cooldown before he can taunt again.

    FYI, i just did the above in game to confirm

    that's a HUGE lapse in taunt coverage.
  • edited May 15
    so effectively, Stonefist's taunt coverage is as follows (without energy added from indigo/ekko/dagrund)

    rounds:
    1. 1/2 coverage, taunt coverage against slow opponents
    2. full coverage
    3. full coverage
    4. no coverage
    5. no coverage
    6. no coverage
    7. 1/2 coverage, taunt coverage against slow opponents

    in 7 rounds, you have only 2 rounds of actual taunt coverage?!..

    edit: tagging @Eej and @Joel in hopes that this gets a response. as is, Stonefist is going back on the shelf after this chill event ends. there's absolutely zero reason to ever bring stonefist out to tank with this lousy coverage.
  • edited May 16
    Stonefist's new Taunt is only supposed to last 3 rounds, that's confirmed. It's to compensate for it also lowering attacker Attack stat, which is actually really huge. If you think Stone is bad, Krexx's Taunt only lasts 2.

    Also I'm also a bit confused as to what you're asking. The Furnace's Taunt, by how you're describing it, lasts the correct number of rounds relative to him. Taunts have always worked a bit differently from regular buffs as well, since they're applied by the hero themselves rather than one of their allies, its relative only to them. For instance, Stone Taunts, and is now taunting for the "rest of the round". This period of time can cover the rest of any Slow heroes on your team, but even if there aren't, still exists. I believe the game counts that little area of time as a turn, so Stone technically taunts for 3 turns, even if it feels like 2. Furnace technically still has this same thing happen, but it's not as penalizing as he's a Normal speed hero, so he gets to Taunt other Normal speed heroes on his turn. Then his Taunt lasts 3, uninterrupted rounds, and on the 4th it decays at the start of the turn.

    I think this is intentional because if Furnace's Taunt didn't decay on his 4th turn, then on the 5th turn it would, but once the order of attackers got to Furnace he could re-apply it. This would even further reduce the window of attack for enemies. Sadly, because this rule exists to pretty much prevent a Tank from endlessly taunting, and some Tanks with taunts are Slow, those tanks essentially get one less turn of Taunt unless there are other Slow enemies who have yet to attack. That's unlikely anyways - Especially unlikely in PvP.

    As for Kai's buff, I'm not sure. I thought it was supposed to buff all heroes for 2 turns each. Maybe once it's applied to the hero, it becomes relative to that hero once their turn starts, so even if Fast heroes attack Furnace while his revenge is up, the 2-turn counter won't technically start until it's his turn to go. Once it's Furnace's turn, the duration becomes reliant on his turn cycle, so to speak. So it only wears off after that turn passes and he performs another action, as after that, it would have effectively passed 2 turns for him. The thing is that Kai is fast, so Furnace technically gets to have extra duration on the buff to revenge Fast heroes. I'm unsure if that's how it was intended to work, but I always thought it lasted 2 turns, and if true, then it seems fine how you described it.

    Stonefist is simply the result of gameplay mechanics working as intended, but they also favor fast or Normal speed heroes, and Stone is Slow speed. In a way, every taunting hero taunts 1 turn less. Stone, as you described, practically taunts 2 turns. By these same mechanics, 4-turn taunts technically last 3 turns, plus a little extra if their speed is higher. Krexx's really only lasts 1 turn when you think about it. Taunts are weird.
    Level: 70
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  • you've pretty much reiterated everything i've said. my question is, is it intended for SF's taunt to be completely worthless by design.
  • oredith wrote: »
    you've pretty much reiterated everything i've said. my question is, is it intended for SF's taunt to be completely worthless by design.

    Like I said, I think the mechanics of it are intentional, but because of the way Stonefist is... yeah, it's sorta crap. Like, on purpose but not on purpose at the same time? I don't think they want Stone to be useless, but because of how the game just works he is.

    Just a side thought: Stonefist was mentioned to be part of the Construct team now, which has 3 Taunters. Perhaps it's a team of tanks who were just meant to cycle through each others' taunts.

    I do wish they didn't cut his Taunt by a turn though.
    Level: 70
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  • Stonefist's new Taunt is only supposed to last 3 rounds, that's confirmed.
    where are you getting this information? i can't find it on the tooltip, nor the wiki.
  • I just want to say that I hate that Furnace gets almost 2 rounds of revenge. It should end at the end of the round that it is cast in, just like how Zen's invincibility ends at the end of the round it is cast in.

    Furnace will still get full use out of it for 1 turn, regardless of whether the opposing team has fasts/normals/slows.
  • I want to thank @oredith for bringing it up and testing. I noticed that same issue with Stonefist during the event.. his taunt was a joke with the duration being so short and the cool down so long. As if being slow wasn't bad enough, this makes him arguably the worst "tank" in the game.

    "Hey team, I'll protect you for a hot minute, but for the next 15 you're screwed"
  • kalamadea wrote: »
    I want to thank @oredith for bringing it up and testing. I noticed that same issue with Stonefist during the event.. his taunt was a joke with the duration being so short and the cool down so long. As if being slow wasn't bad enough, this makes him arguably the worst "tank" in the game.

    "Hey team, I'll protect you for a hot minute, but for the next 15 you're screwed"

    In Stone's defense, if every enemy hits him at least once, they'll be doing a lot less damage to his buddies once his Taunt expires. I think that was sort of the point, 1 less turn on the taunt in exchange for lowering enemy Atk when hit.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Indigo
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  • In Stone's defense, if every enemy hits him at least once, they'll be doing a lot less damage to his buddies once his Taunt expires. I think that was sort of the point, 1 less turn on the taunt in exchange for lowering enemy Atk when hit.
    while I would not be happy, nor would I use SF to tank PVE, at least I'd feel "better" knowing that this is actually the intent.

    however, consider the perks even with the other blue heroes who are not only NOT saddled with being slow, but also only have 1 round tank lapse in coverage.

    igo=reflect damage
    william=revenge attack

    If the devs want us to actually use SF, i really think they need to boost the taunt to 5 round duration, 5 round cooldown, so that in combination with the slow speed, there is only 1 round of tank gap like the other tanks.

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