Can We Make Damage Reduction Multiplicative and Not Additive?

JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
Small plea to the devs here, but can we please make damage reduction work differently? That is, make it multiply instead of add together? It's just crazy that people can get 90%+ damage reduction on some heroes.

Additionally, I think it would be fair if all percent-based stats, buffs or debuffs, were multiplicative. So if you had one hero who buffed an ally's defense passively by 50%, and another who buffed them by 50% in a different way, it would only buff for a total of 75%. Same for applied buffs. Of course, all the same to debuffs as well.

My reasoning behind this is PvP. If we removed the ability for people to stack damage reduction, buffs on their heroes, and debuffs on their enemies, PvP battles would be more fair, last longer (but not due to a nearly unkillable Emily), and just be more enjoyable in general.

I know this is a lot to ask. In fact, I doubt it can even be done at this point. It's probably coding hell to try and change an additive calculations system to be multiplicative... But if it's not actually that hard, even if it takes months, I think it'd be very welcomed...
Level: 70
Favorite hero: Bovus
Favorite element: Nature
Currently: Trying to max out Epics

Comments

  • FatCat69FatCat69 Member
    Yes. Let's just invalidate the investment that others have made crafting because you don't want to craft Planning Runes yourself. ;)

    The DR teams aren't invincible. Like any strengths, there are countermeasures to use against them.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    FatCat69 wrote: »
    Yes. Let's just invalidate the investment that others have made crafting because you don't want to craft Planning Runes yourself. ;)

    The DR teams aren't invincible. Like any strengths, there are countermeasures to use against them.

    Who said I don't want to craft DR runes? I have some. Even I don't think it's fair.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Bovus
    Favorite element: Nature
    Currently: Trying to max out Epics
  • FatCat69FatCat69 Member
    It is absolutely fair. Others are able to craft those same runes for themselves, build up their own heroes, use similar defenses or attacking teams.

    If I were to attack an all green team with an all blue team of my own and get slaughtered, I couldn't call it unfair, I just didn't bring the right heroes. If I see an armored team and note that they're decked out in Planning and Tactics runes, I know I need to bring something to cut through that.

    Just because you aren't able to successfully attack and win against a particular defense doesn't make it unfair and shouldn't be a reason to alter the game so that you and others have an easier time attacking that defense. Figure out a way in. Use similar tactics on your own heroes. Learn by watching and emulating others who have put in the time and effort and money to craft their own defenses.

    FWIW - The runes that they've been putting out lately have been tailored to dealing with these kinds of heroes. Legendary, Armored, Healers. If you've been playing the game and collecting those runes, your offenses should be getting stronger against them. Keep going. Give it time. Success shouldn't come overnight.
  • edited June 15
    First fix the damage formula so that attack doesn't count twice and make defense irrelevant. Then we can fix DR.

    Please, no more fixing the solutions we've come up with before fixing the real problem. That's just infuriating.
    centralcommand
  • phontonxphontonx Member
    I am looking forward to the combat revamp that is coming soon. I have high hopes it will deal with all the above!
    10328949?gid=

  • If it was easy to fix, it probably would've been done already.

    As it stands, everyone knows that the upcoming shift in damage calculation is going to cause a ton of angst, myself included.



    But it needs to be done.


  • danacdanac Member
    I dunno.

    All that math seems too hard.

    Devs have enough trouble just getting people to login
    or letting people keep mail when their account gets screwed over.

  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited June 15
    I'm not sure why no one has stated the obvious here. Multiplicative for DR would be pretty much a joke. Since noone has taken the time to do the math... I'll spell it out.

    Let's look at a basic bullet proof hero right now.

    My Emily currently has DR from 6 sources: 11/8/9/5/11/5 for a total of 49% on my character sheet. Add to that an additional 40% from pvp 4th stats 10/10/10/10. Under the current model my Emily has 89% DR.

    Under a multiplicative method she would have as follow .11*1.08*1.09*1.05*1.11*1.05*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1

    For a grand total of 23% DR. Your proposed change reduces my Emily's DR from 89% to 23%. (This gets significantly worse if I use any of the other amounts for the starting base. I chose 11% arbitrarily as it created the highest possible % using a multiplicative method)

    I think that's all that really needs to be said about this idea.

    Edit: The issue with multiplicative math is it creates exponential diminishing returns. It really doesn't work for any scenario in this game.
  • sirolk99sirolk99 Member
    Your math just proves @JackHallow666 post in that he feels the DR % is too high and is suggesting the multiplication to purposely bring down your heroes DR % to something he feels is more reasonable. (My take on this)...
    "The Bastion" - Officer - Level 70
    http://bastion-db.boards.net/
  • FatCat69FatCat69 Member
    @sirolk99 no, his math proves that changing the way DR is calculated to multiplicative would make DR as useful as those Resist Runes we already took out of the game.

    If you want to craft useless runes, stick to crafting stuff with Skill. Leave our DR alone.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    FatCat69 wrote: »
    @sirolk99 no, his math proves that changing the way DR is calculated to multiplicative would make DR as useful as those Resist Runes we already took out of the game.

    If you want to craft useless runes, stick to crafting stuff with Skill. Leave our DR alone.

    Awfully prickly about keeping your broken heroes. How about a compromise, where stats and buffs are applied all the same way, but damage reduction has a cap at 50%? just like how Crit and dodge Chance have caps.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Bovus
    Favorite element: Nature
    Currently: Trying to max out Epics
  • nunyanunya Member
    Or you could worry about damage reduction after the attack formula is actually fixed.
    nunya
  • sirolk99sirolk99 Member
    Why not both?
    "The Bastion" - Officer - Level 70
    http://bastion-db.boards.net/
  • danacdanac Member
    FatCat69 wrote: »
    @sirolk99 no, his math proves that changing the way DR is calculated to multiplicative would make DR as useful as those Resist Runes we already took out of the game.

    If you want to craft useless runes, stick to crafting stuff with Skill. Leave our DR alone.

    Awfully prickly about keeping your broken heroes. How about a compromise, where stats and buffs are applied all the same way, but damage reduction has a cap at 50%? just like how Crit and dodge Chance have caps.

    Because damage reduction is the only counter to the massively overpowered attack mechanics. When you can easily do 20-30,000 hit pints of damage to a 6,000 hit point character, and when defense doesn't stack the same way attack does, damage reduction is *necessary*.

    If you put a hard cap at 50% [and it is capped at 50% now, but that doesn't include 4th stats], then youd be doing 15,000 points of damage to a 6k hp hero.

    Leave dr alone until you fix attack/rune mechanics.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    danac wrote: »
    FatCat69 wrote: »
    @sirolk99 no, his math proves that changing the way DR is calculated to multiplicative would make DR as useful as those Resist Runes we already took out of the game.

    If you want to craft useless runes, stick to crafting stuff with Skill. Leave our DR alone.

    Awfully prickly about keeping your broken heroes. How about a compromise, where stats and buffs are applied all the same way, but damage reduction has a cap at 50%? just like how Crit and dodge Chance have caps.

    Because damage reduction is the only counter to the massively overpowered attack mechanics. When you can easily do 20-30,000 hit pints of damage to a 6,000 hit point character, and when defense doesn't stack the same way attack does, damage reduction is *necessary*.

    If you put a hard cap at 50% [and it is capped at 50% now, but that doesn't include 4th stats], then youd be doing 15,000 points of damage to a 6k hp hero.

    Leave dr alone until you fix attack/rune mechanics.

    Hey, I totally agree with ya. The fact you can more than double a hero's attack with Runes alone is insane, really. I get it's meant to go beyond what a hero can do so once you've "maxed out" a hero, you can still make them stronger, but the amount of strength you can keep stacking on is too much.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Bovus
    Favorite element: Nature
    Currently: Trying to max out Epics
  • YykkilYykkil Member
    I agree that the DR needs to be modified in some way - in what way, I cannot explicitly state, but to the effect that heroes can still be hurt by unmodified normal attack damage (your basic Slash), yet also not becoming mincemeat to specialised attack damage (eg, Lily's x2 to Armoured).
    9807918
  • sirtainlysirtainly Member
    edited June 17
    So if we change DR from additive to multiplicative, and noone uses it anymore, and it is removed, then I can have DEFENSE/DEFENSE/DEFENSE runes as the default for Bulwark which would be really great!
  • TenchigoTenchigo Member
    I totally agree with this but we also have to include damage. Damage is a huge problem in the game seeing how people exceed 20k DMG but not a single hero in this game has that much HP "Unless you possibly stack superior HP runes but that'd be pointless". We need a DMG limit on heros to make it much more balanced and not a Power/DMG Resistence focused game
  • FatCat69FatCat69 Member
    Trust me, Damage is relatively useless. There is zero need for a cap there.
  • ckall056ckall056 Member
    I'm ok with just a harder cap on DR - set it to 75% and no gimmicks to take it over - crit and dodge already function this way, i think DR should fall similarly in-line. If your statement it "it does", then we should ge granted more hero passives that allow other stats to creep towards or even over 100%.
    The point i'm trying to make is there needs to be consistency.
    As said already, defense seems to work absolutely nothing like attack power does.
    We need total transparency that says:
    "When A attacks B, this is the exact calculation between Attack A and Defense B" - i think if some of the number junkies like myself can see those numbers, we as a group would have a better chance at coming up with the proper solution here. Though, I think this is probably a topic for a smaller focus group.
    That being said, if someone has legit calculation values for how attack and defense kick in to an attack role, and its confirmed directly by @Eej or @Joel , i would certainly like to review those values.
    FWIW, i have a degree in mathematics...so yeah... :smile:
    www.youtube.com/DarthCraig
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