Damage Reduction vs. Bulwurk?

What I want to know is if I have a hero that has one purpose(to survive), and 5rune places to fill, what should I put in them? People keep saying bulwurks do so much, but yet people aren't stacking bulwurks to make invincible heroes. what I wanna know is if having max Dr is higher priority than having high defense. Im aware that DR gets better as a multiplier where as defense is flat. so for example I can understand if Dr takes priority on an armored or flying hero, but not others...So to provide an example question. If I want to build my ferno dragon to only survive. what would b the best combination of hp,def,dr runes to complete this task?

Ive seen lots of post talking about def or hp or dr runes, but the question is usually asked when the hero has bulwurks already on common sense DR doesn't do a lot if you don't have a stack of it.

Comments

  • DR > Defense in almost all cases. The only debatable point is the purple spot, a defense/defense/DR superior bulwark can be situationally better then a 10% tactics rune. But for the most part an aegis or planning rune is a straight upgrade over a bulwark when looking to add some defense.

    That being said, this is from the summit this past weekend:
    13:39 Dillon.DB For Damage Reduction, and a good majority of our reduction effects, they were stacking additively with buffs. That is to say, if you had over 100% Damage Reduction through a combination of effects, those effects would cause a character with normal damage scaling to deal no damage. Then, if a 100% damage reduction character was feared, an attacking character would deal its normal damage to them. (+ ~8% or so, thanks skill!) This was strange, both characters had done things to result in no damage somewhat awesome damage, but it was roughly a normal attack.
    13:39 Dillon.DB What we did instead here is a few things. We made Damage Reduction stack multiplicatively, so it was harder to get that 100%. We also made it apply multiplicatively, such that whatever the resulting damage of the attacker is, is then reduced by Damage Reduction, not just the base effects. So, as a whole with this change, individual damage reduction is more important, while simultaneously less important to stack it to the exclusion of all else.

    Clearly there are major changes coming to DR in the near future. So maybe don't invest heavily in either at the moment until we see how all this shakes out. Not saying don't craft, just be aware that the value of the rune you make might change drastically soon so don't go all in.
    centralcommand
  • A good question, and one I don't have a definitive answer to.

    My understanding is that a gross damage number is determined by comparing attack and defense, and then damage reduction reduces the remaining damage appropriately. Which order this happens in is mathematically irrelevant.

    There are plenty of occasions when damage is reduced to zero (or 1 on Astrid) by this combination, but then one of the factors changes and you are able to kill or severely injure a hero that previously took zero damage. Damage reduction seems to be easier to circumvent in an attack than pure defense, so I still prefer to rune for defense first, and get as much damage reduction as I can to go with it.

  • if your still using improved runes, use defense, 5.12% damage reduction is basically a joke, if you have enough gems and materials to make superior legendary runes, then go for damage reduction, since you can get 50% no problem


    exceptions: always choose bulwark over aegis for heavy tanks who's job is actually to tank hits(like igorok for struggling players)
    if a hero already has DR, like magical or armoured, choose aegis over bulwark
    aegis works better than bulwark for squishies with crap defense




    in general, you want to take the hero's stronger stat(DR traits or high defense) and increase it even more

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  • if they gonna update damage reduction, it should b to attach a description of how to best use it. and to stop requiring an attack shard. nothing is wrong with dr people jus think it cheap when they hit zeros because they dont wanna use a hero that doesn't hit zero's. one problem a lot of games have is they dont let players adapt, they try to control meta's. I cannot fear what I cannot control so investment isn't based off what ifs in my mind it based off what is best, u say dr is better thy I take ur trophy count means u kno wht ur saying. so how do I best rune ferno to surive? superior tactics in the purple n red? superior aegis in green? planning in yellow? and thx for the advice man(or woo)
  • sparkle so what is the best way to make the most survivable ferno?
  • Ferno's job isn't really to survive, since he has airial superiority, and one shot the defender's first normal speed hero, but if you want to make a brick wall ferno, I suggest 3 bulwarks in water, dark, and light, and 2 lifes in natures

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  • Im sure ferno is capable of many things, but what I dont want out of him if I can avoid it is, him dieing before he gets to go since his att neuter will last the full turn if this happens and I put a lion king to go after my drag, and I dont want my lion king nerfed beause ferno is pudding.

    Im building on after ferno goes, not before he goes. if I was running ember/shade/hopper/ferno I wouldn't run him this way. but im running X/furnace/ferno/koros. Not saying my team is more correct saying this is best I got considering my ember was jus unlocked yesterday.
  • I went with as much DR as I could gather for my Ferno and he can really take a beating.
    6446728
  • kpung is haunting/fear the only thing that brings em down?
  • Ferno's job isn't really to survive, since he has airial superiority, and one shot the defender's first normal speed hero, but if you want to make a brick wall ferno, I suggest 3 bulwarks in water, dark, and light, and 2 lifes in natures
    Ferno's job is to survive if you want to use normal or slow heroes with him. If he dies, his debuff doesn't go away. If you use fast heroes then yea his survival doesn't matter too much.

    As for build, pure survival build is: 2x green aegis, 1x yellow planning, 1x red tactics, and then 1x bulwark or tactics in the purple slot. My personal preference is a superior Def/Def/DR bulwark in the purple slot. But if you aren't making superiors yet or looking to save cash then definitely go with a purple tactics. Tactics are great because even the lessers can give 10% DR. So you get full value out of them for like no cost at all.

    Though I guess I'm not totally sure what stage of the game you're in. If you are making improved runes then sparkle could be right, maybe DR is crap at that point since you get too little. I only know my experience: in endgame pvp bulwarks are rare unless they're purple and life runes are nonexistent. Astrid is probably the only exception, she usually has a yellow bulwark due to her passive.
    centralcommand
  • central command I jus hit lvl 65, ive made maybe 4superiors and I bought last weeks pvp rune for 60k honor. but I will craft what I need to craft in time, I do everything at a slow rate ive only been playing since late march this year and im 100% f2p
  • I can run superior dungeon as fast as the stamina comes in lol but they all dark mainly, so I now learned at 65shop sells shards n binders so it all jus a matter of time at this point.

    Also curiosity question, what is the max cost of 4raid tickets or does it never stop going up?
  • central command I jus hit lvl 65, ive made maybe 4superiors and I bought last weeks pvp rune for 60k honor. but I will craft what I need to craft in time, I do everything at a slow rate ive only been playing since late march this year and im 100% f2p

    seriously, how does everyone level up this fast? I've been playing for 2 years and I'm only lv 51

    but I do have a stronger roster than most people my level

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  • If your hero has a very high dr without runes, dr is good because it can make that hero invincible. However, in terms off sheer defensive prowess, I think those bulwark runes are your friend.
    Gorgons have a new guild! Gormandizing gorgon! Yaya!!!
  • fast? I leveled slow by not accepting quest xp or doing pointless dungeons only because I didn't kno at lvl 60i get better pvp rewards, once I figured this out I grabbed xp every where I could find it. If you want xp, dont forget that running some 3room dungeons can give u 10xp for 5stanima. plus the tower provides over 100stanima a day for that use, and if you do all the daily quests and accept the rewards u get a few hundred xp a day from this as well
  • farfella, u may be right. im not sure on this topic that why I posted, but from self test, I tried kai, with all defense, and then I tried kai with all DR and he does way better at staying alive with Dr than he does with defense. But what I really wonder is when combining DR and Def, how do I prioritize it
  • lost_jumper1lost_jumper1 Member
    edited August 10
    how do I delete posts comments?
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    edited August 10
    From those comments it seems there is a huge nerf coming to DR. Perhaps we should start making runes with high Defense to prepare. Obviously, either DR or Defense will always be superior to the other. It's their mistake to include both stats in the same game, since one will always be better. Shame there's no good way to balance them.

    Then again, maybe they have something up their sleeves?

    Edit: Just to be clear, I'm only a guru. I don't actually know what's coming up. I know only as much as anyone who's been to the Summit meetings. If I sound like I'm teasing at something, I'm not. I legit have no idea what they plan to do with DR vs Defense. Even if I did, I'd lose my guru status if I ever leaked anything, soooo.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Indigo
    Currently: Trying to get as many runes done as possible. Takes a lot of money, man!
  • Yes, the summit says dr will be nerfed. Devs, I don't suppose you guys can confirm this can you?
    Gorgons have a new guild! Gormandizing gorgon! Yaya!!!
  • Well it was a Dev (DIllion) who explained how DR and DR PEN will work now so I don't see anymore confirmation needed.
  • There are occasions where DR does you no good at all, e.g. Masuta Kira's second skill ignores all mitigating factors, armor, damage reduction etc. I frequently ding off Bauble a couple of times and then slam him with one hit.

    There are also occasions where you want lots of defense, e.g. Astrid wants all the defense she can get so lower attacks just ping off her.

    Aiming for a bit of balance between them is a reasonable way to go.

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