Shade absolutely must be nerfed

13

Comments


  • I get this thread is probably getting you heated up, but you don’t have to go around insulting people. At least when Bvs or Danac do it, it’s funny.

    I insult people?

    Mock them, maybe, but insult?
    :o
  • here is the relative truth here


    shade is overpowered in multiple ways, and he must be nerfed in at least one way


    ekko is not useless, i love the little guy and he can be an awesome hero

    solaris teams are not easy to deal with
  • @JackHallow666 - sorry, was not trying to insult you. Just joking with you. Hence the LOL and the smiley face. Thought it was obvious, but guess not.

    Try attacking with Ekko. He sucks as a defender, but he is invaluable as an attacker. Especially if the four defenders do not have a DR penetrator.
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited December 2017
    echonap wrote: »
    @JackHallow666 - sorry, was not trying to insult you. Just joking with you. Hence the LOL and the smiley face. Thought it was obvious, but guess not.

    Try attacking with Ekko. He sucks as a defender, but he is invaluable as an attacker. Especially if the four defenders do not have a DR penetrator.

    I ran Ekko on defense and he won me a lot of games because he was impossible to kill. I wouldn't say he's terrible on defense either. Many people don't bother switching teams and their go to team doesn't have a way to kill him.

    He of course shines on offense right now and is included in most top offensive lines.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    echonap wrote: »
    @JackHallow666 - sorry, was not trying to insult you. Just joking with you. Hence the LOL and the smiley face. Thought it was obvious, but guess not.

    Try attacking with Ekko. He sucks as a defender, but he is invaluable as an attacker. Especially if the four defenders do not have a DR penetrator.

    Oh, okay. I’m bad at picking up sarcasm usually. No, I shouldn’t have said Ekko sucks. I thought we were talking on Defense. I use Ekko on Offense quite often, he’s good for that, definitely.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • Ok, true, not terrible on defense. If the attacker does not bring a DR penetrator, automatic win. But his first ability is negated on defense since the team has full energy already. Much more useful on offense.
  • I love the idea that if Shade was unable to ignore taunt that this change would instantly create a whole new PvP meta.
  • I agree 100%, jax. I think taking away “turn a blind eye” is the solution. Even from the dev’s perspective, this would make sense. Solaris and marrow are the latest cash cows and shade makes them wayyyyy less important :co9nnfdoo128.jpeg
    In order for these to become relevant, no fast hero can have “turn a blind eye”. It just doesn’t make sense.
    Seeing shade paired with zomm in every defense has been a nightmare for me. Planning out a ‘perfect’ strategy is difficult with shade’s erratic targeting. Just my two cents.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    Speaking of Marrow, moving his last ability to his first would make him pretty dang useful on offense.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • Shade ignoring taunt would be cool, but I think by that time , some people won't have to worry about it anymore .
  • echonap wrote: »

    However, you missed my point. Having one OP hero actually helps lower end players compete with higher end players. You disagree with this? Or you disagree that this is the correct way to model a game? Because I don't think this it is the correct way neither. I am just stating that the current meta actually helps newer players more, correct or incorrect as it may be.
    Im a bit late, but i guess ill state my opinion. Nerfing Shade will NOT hurt lower levels, as lower level players most likely dont have shade or cant get him fa. Kiras nerf hurt low levels the most since shade teams already existed to counter light teams. Shades nerf will hurt high levels since they will no longer have a 1 way ticket to 50-streak town.

  • Deathrift_ wrote: »
    Im a bit late, but i guess ill state my opinion. Nerfing Shade will NOT hurt lower levels, as lower level players most likely dont have shade or cant get him fa. Kiras nerf hurt low levels the most since shade teams already existed to counter light teams. Shades nerf will hurt high levels since they will no longer have a 1 way ticket to 50-streak town.

    Hahaha my bad, I was not even considering lower levels. I meant, it makes it easier for level 70s with less flushed out rosters to compete with high end level 70s with 100s of superior runes. With Shade, you only need 50 superior runes to compete with the best. Without Shade, you would need 100s because of the added diversity.

    Low level game, I have no comment. I do not play an alt.

  • I say again: nerfing is not the answer.

    Also, your power rating analogy is irrelevant. If you can’t see why people would be upset in regards to the MK nerf, I guess this argument is moot.

    Noooooow I understand why you’re so mad about the MK nerf! You’re trying to replace him with BD, which makes for a terribly easy defense that loses in round 1! Switch it up and use good heroes, you won’t miss MK anymore.

    Sorry, couldn’t resist :)

    cguz4beyw7mb.png
  • I am level 40 and @deathrift is wrong. Many lower level people including myself have shade and have him fully ascended. It’s not that hard to do. I am against any nerfs. What’s done is done.
  • EsmenothEsmenoth Member
    edited December 2017
    While Shade has to be nerfed (no one hero in a game with 70 heroes should be so ubiquitous) I do hope they put a lot of thought into it.

    For many, many players, Shade is their one key to unlock certain puzzles, especially Solaris and Reptile teams. Removing Turn a Blind Eye would be a mistake, for just that reason. Done out of context of the beasts and reptiles, nerfing Shade will just create another headache for many.
    Post edited by Esmenoth on
  • MaxBeamer wrote: »
    I am level 40 and @deathrift is wrong. Many lower level people including myself have shade and have him fully ascended. It’s not that hard to do. I am against any nerfs. What’s done is done.

    You're a gem
  • Esmenoth wrote: »
    While Shade has to be nerfed (no one hero in a game with 70 heroes should be so ubiquitous) I do hope they put a lot of thought into it.

    Everyone who is asking them to NOT nerf Shade IS asking them to put the thought and effort into it. We're asking that because clearly, no effort was put into the MK Nerf. None. They didn't even try to make him reasonable. They threw him up on a pinball machine.

    And they were doing a really good job with minute changes up until then.
    -Manglejaw (which was for a LONG TIME a bad character)
    -Jabber (Easily a character that could have been erased and nobody would be sad)
    -IGOROK got a bit of a downgrade IMO, but he's still playable
    -Minus Solaris, most of the new characters aren't dominating PVP and are Tier 3 at worst

    But the last update wasn't a good update, and Solaris is really too powerful in the Beast team.
  • I do not need @TiggerBunny to put words in my mouth! I am NOT asking the devs to put thought and effort into Shades nerf. I am asking them not to do it all. If you keep asking them to nerf Shade they are going to make him useless just like Kira.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    MaxBeamer wrote: »
    I do not need @TiggerBunny to put words in my mouth! I am NOT asking the devs to put thought and effort into Shades nerf. I am asking them not to do it all. If you keep asking them to nerf Shade they are going to make him useless just like Kira.

    But Shade is everything. Fast. High damage. Tanky (Spirit Link, Shrouded, the fact you can build him any way you want...). You can put any Runes you want on him, basically. He can become any other hero on the field. He can become invincible for up to 3 turns, and not just that, transferring damage and debuffs to his target. There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that Shade needs a nerf. Therefore, when he is nerfed, they should put some thought into it, instead of making him the next MK.

    But even with all that said, if they nerfed him the same amount they nerfed MK, he's still going to be used. He was far better than MK even when MK was still decent. Nerfing Shade the same amount means he'll still be above MK.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • Poor guy doesn't want his strongest hero nerfed
  • A couple disclaimers:
    1. I’m not trying to top 100, so I can’t say what it’s like at the pinnacle.
    2. I’m not going to say Shade isn’t overpowered.

    Having said that, it’s not all that difficult to curb stomp the waves of shades on the way to Warlord 1. Just kill the Shade! Shade’s power doesn’t really come to bear until round two. If he’s lived that long, you’ve either run into one of the very few people who adequately protect him, you’ve made a tactical error, or you are at a numeric power disadvantage.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    Lafoote wrote: »
    A couple disclaimers:
    1. I’m not trying to top 100, so I can’t say what it’s like at the pinnacle.
    2. I’m not going to say Shade isn’t overpowered.

    Having said that, it’s not all that difficult to curb stomp the waves of shades on the way to Warlord 1. Just kill the Shade! Shade’s power doesn’t really come to bear until round two. If he’s lived that long, you’ve either run into one of the very few people who adequately protect him, you’ve made a tactical error, or you are at a numeric power disadvantage.

    Two of those scenarios you can’t even avoid. Not to mention even if you take out the Shade, what if he’s merely a distraction? There could be a full-damage Grog ready to sweep your team in a couple moves. There could be an Emily or Sol ready to revive Shade. There could be a Viperia or Koros ready to deal massive damage and purge all your buffs.

    So many scenarios where killing Shade is a catch-22, making him just an absolute pain to deal with.

    If you ask me,
    - Remove his ‘Turn a Blind Eye’
    - Haunted Past needs to not Fear and deal way less damage
    - Spirit Link should last 1 turn, but I could also accept 2 I suppose. Just not 3.
    - Spirit Link should not be available on your next turn on offense. Even with Kobal on your team.
    - Possessed should not make the target have full energy again, rather, what energy they had when they died.
    - Possessed should last a maximum of 2 turns.

    Even with these changes, I guarantee you you’ll still see Shade being used. He’s a Fast Dark hero Immune to debuffs and applies an Aoe Mark for Death for ally Dark heroes - which are already incredibly prevelant. I’ll feel bad for those who put money into making him their best hero; But surely, they should’ve seen a nerf for him coming eventually. If anything, we should be happy he’s been as strong as he has been for so long.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • Lafoote wrote: »
    A couple disclaimers:
    1. I’m not trying to top 100, so I can’t say what it’s like at the pinnacle.
    2. I’m not going to say Shade isn’t overpowered.

    Having said that, it’s not all that difficult to curb stomp the waves of shades on the way to Warlord 1. Just kill the Shade! Shade’s power doesn’t really come to bear until round two. If he’s lived that long, you’ve either run into one of the very few people who adequately protect him, you’ve made a tactical error, or you are at a numeric power disadvantage.

    Shade Koros Igorok Zomm

    Do you kill shade first?

    Shade Astrid Hansuke Zomm

    Do you kill shade first?

    Shade Grog Pignius Solaris

    Do you kill shade first?

    Also realize that any hybrid shade can't be one shot by your shade without a crit. Even a crit won't kill the shade on the Astrid team.

    Not trying to be rude, but when you start your sentence with "Disclaimer: I don't really know what I'm talking about". You probably should just withhold the opinion.

    I also don't think most people realize how removing "turn a blind eye" would fundamentally change pvp. A large portion of pvp tactics specifically rely on that trait. It's definitely something that would have to be thoroughly tested, and even then could still inadvertently break pvp if some kind of defensive combination was missed. I suppose the change could always be reverted, but DB obviously doesn't like changing their heroes if at all possible.


  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    Lafoote wrote: »
    A couple disclaimers:
    1. I’m not trying to top 100, so I can’t say what it’s like at the pinnacle.
    2. I’m not going to say Shade isn’t overpowered.

    Having said that, it’s not all that difficult to curb stomp the waves of shades on the way to Warlord 1. Just kill the Shade! Shade’s power doesn’t really come to bear until round two. If he’s lived that long, you’ve either run into one of the very few people who adequately protect him, you’ve made a tactical error, or you are at a numeric power disadvantage.

    Shade Koros Igorok Zomm

    Do you kill shade first?

    Shade Astrid Hansuke Zomm

    Do you kill shade first?

    Shade Grog Pignius Solaris

    Do you kill shade first?

    Also realize that any hybrid shade can't be one shot by your shade without a crit. Even a crit won't kill the shade on the Astrid team.

    Not trying to be rude, but when you start your sentence with "Disclaimer: I don't really know what I'm talking about". You probably should just withhold the opinion.

    I also don't think most people realize how removing "turn a blind eye" would fundamentally change pvp. A large portion of pvp tactics specifically rely on that trait. It's definitely something that would have to be thoroughly tested, and even then could still inadvertently break pvp if some kind of defensive combination was missed. I suppose the change could always be reverted, but DB obviously doesn't like changing their heroes if at all possible.


    The problem I have with Turn a Blind Eye extends beyond the fact that it makes Shade broken. It's that it doesn't FIT him at all. Phemus? Makes sense! He has one eye. The passive is a pun on his design. Viperia? oookay.... Still sort of get it, I guess. She's a Gorgon, so she does stuff with her eyes... Maybe that would've worked better on Cobressa, though.

    Shade? What? Why? It makes literally no sense other than to make him broken. If they just re-designed the passive, made it purple, and gave it a new name, I'd actually be fine with it!
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • LafooteLafoote Member
    edited December 2017
    Thanks MattCauthron, but I didn’t say “I don’t know what I’m talking about.” I said “I don’t like buying PvP tickets & endless grinding.”

    Overall, to answer your questions, I didn’t say kill him first, I said kill him before round 2.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    edited December 2017
    It's a petty and pointless complaint, but I hate how Shade only has ONE passive that's actually his colors - Shrouded. And without his Epic, you only even see this thing for 1 turn. 'Fast' is red/orange, 'Turn a Blind Eye' is green, 'Mystical' is yellow, you get the idea.

    It's actually weird. Shade hardly has any passives. His power is all in his rune layout and abilities. Perhaps they could nerf his abilities, remove Turn a Blind Eye, and then give him some newer, more dark-centric passives to sort of balance him out. That way he gets nerfed, but also slightly buffed so people don't get angry when their money is supposedly burnt up in a Shade nerf.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    Lafoote wrote: »
    Thanks MattCauthron, but I didn’t say “I don’t know what I’m talking about.” I said “I don’t like buying PvP tickets & endless grinding.”

    Overall, to answer your questions, I didn’t say kill him first, I said kill him before round 2.

    The problem is killing Shade before round two basically means focusing all your efforts on killing him, which is, essentially, taking him out first.

    I suppose Shadowblade could deal a good chunk of damage and purge Shrouded, allowing someone like Koros, Grog, or Viperia to then eat up the rest of his health unopposed... But then what if they kill your damage dealer? What if Shade kills Shadowblade? What if they have a Grog and slow all your heroes? Not to mention the Shade could just have 2-3 Life/Bulwark runes and not die the first round no matter what you do.

    Battling Shade is essentially playing Russian Roulette - and this game has enough RNG in it to make people angry over random chance already.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • Lafoote wrote: »
    Thanks MattCauthron, but I didn’t say “I don’t know what I’m talking about.” I said “I don’t like buying PvP tickets & endless grinding.”

    Overall, to answer your questions, I didn’t say kill him first, I said kill him before round 2.

    The problem is killing Shade before round two basically means focusing all your efforts on killing him, which is, essentially, taking him out first.

    I suppose Shadowblade could deal a good chunk of damage and purge Shrouded, allowing someone like Koros, Grog, or Viperia to then eat up the rest of his health unopposed... But then what if they kill your damage dealer? What if Shade kills Shadowblade? What if they have a Grog and slow all your heroes? Not to mention the Shade could just have 2-3 Life/Bulwark runes and not die the first round no matter what you do.

    Battling Shade is essentially playing Russian Roulette - and this game has enough RNG in it to make people angry over random chance already.

    I know you play a ton, but I have to say that Shade isn't a big concern for me; Hopper/Zomm are far more dangerous. I run Shade, Koros, Leo and Sol (w/Sup Guardian). Shade I use vs. Zomm or Hopper (Hopper first). I expect my Koros to die, and then either Leo or Sol to resurrect. My Koros has 1-shotted basically every shade he's ever met, and I've beaten 33,000 power teams with a 22,000 power team of my own. Shade is squishy, moreso vs. Koros.

    You have to adapt to the META. Reptiles were a huge pain until shade came along, and I hated those teams. Vs. Solaris, you need to be smart, but a wide variety of high damage dealers/rez/purgers can win the day.

    Shade is usually the 3rd hero I check for behind Zomm and Hopper and I don't even bother checking his runes anymore. If you let him survive til the 2nd turn, then your team isn't strong enough.

    I've heard a lot of complaints from DR attackers about him; I happen to favor attack over DR and it works out well (usually 4 attack + 1 defense rune) with a rez team.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    xandrew29 wrote: »
    Lafoote wrote: »
    Thanks MattCauthron, but I didn’t say “I don’t know what I’m talking about.” I said “I don’t like buying PvP tickets & endless grinding.”

    Overall, to answer your questions, I didn’t say kill him first, I said kill him before round 2.

    The problem is killing Shade before round two basically means focusing all your efforts on killing him, which is, essentially, taking him out first.

    I suppose Shadowblade could deal a good chunk of damage and purge Shrouded, allowing someone like Koros, Grog, or Viperia to then eat up the rest of his health unopposed... But then what if they kill your damage dealer? What if Shade kills Shadowblade? What if they have a Grog and slow all your heroes? Not to mention the Shade could just have 2-3 Life/Bulwark runes and not die the first round no matter what you do.

    Battling Shade is essentially playing Russian Roulette - and this game has enough RNG in it to make people angry over random chance already.

    I know you play a ton, but I have to say that Shade isn't a big concern for me; Hopper/Zomm are far more dangerous. I run Shade, Koros, Leo and Sol (w/Sup Guardian). Shade I use vs. Zomm or Hopper (Hopper first). I expect my Koros to die, and then either Leo or Sol to resurrect. My Koros has 1-shotted basically every shade he's ever met, and I've beaten 33,000 power teams with a 22,000 power team of my own. Shade is squishy, moreso vs. Koros.

    You have to adapt to the META. Reptiles were a huge pain until shade came along, and I hated those teams. Vs. Solaris, you need to be smart, but a wide variety of high damage dealers/rez/purgers can win the day.

    Shade is usually the 3rd hero I check for behind Zomm and Hopper and I don't even bother checking his runes anymore. If you let him survive til the 2nd turn, then your team isn't strong enough.

    I've heard a lot of complaints from DR attackers about him; I happen to favor attack over DR and it works out well (usually 4 attack + 1 defense rune) with a rez team.

    And this is exactly what I meant earlier when I said choosing to attack Shade is sacrificing your ability to attack a larger threat.

    Say you focus Solaris/Zomm/Hopper. Great. They're dead. Doesn't matter, though, since Shade will just possess one of them later and the madness starts all over again. Bring Hopper, you say, but Shade will either 1-shot Hopper, or if your Hopper is tanky, kill your other heroes, leaving you with a silly rabbit that does no damage.

    My point is, Shade isn't necessarily a problem on his own. The problem is he's like a road-block. A huge obstacle in your path that can be avoided, but if you're not paying attention you're going to run right into it and die. If you attack Shade, you're losing out. If you don't attack Shade, you're losing out. He's just a jack of all trades - and he's far from a master of none at that.

    I understand you very high-up, top-tier players can usually get around this kind of stuff, but you can at least admit it gets stale, right? Battling the same heroes again and again with the same heroes again and again? Wouldn't it be cool to see heroes like Selwyn, Abigail, or the Demons in PvP and actually have to strategize against them? Even if he's beatable, that doesn't mean he's balanced - Because every hero is beatable. Shade is just way less beatable than all the others (except Solaris and Beasts, of course. They need an even larger nerf).
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • And this is exactly what I meant earlier when I said choosing to attack Shade is sacrificing your ability to attack a larger threat.

    Which larger threat? Which hero will generally, 100% kill one of your heroes in round 2 if you don't kill him?

    Yes, a lot can be done to promote diversity. Yes Shade is disproportionately powerful. Yes, you can compete with him.

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