Shade absolutely must be nerfed

124

Comments


  • xandrew29 wrote: »
    Lafoote wrote: »

    Battling Shade is essentially playing Russian Roulette - and this game has enough RNG in it to make people angry over random chance already.

    I know you play a ton, but I have to say that Shade isn't a big concern for me; Hopper/Zomm are far more dangerous.


    Shade is annoying because he randomly attacks and fears some heroes.

    Everything else he does is much more manageable. Hopper is almost always easily dealt with.
    Zomm is the main problem now.

    ...I don't find Shade to be a huge problem. It might be because I've always been at a disadvantage roster power wise so I've always faced teams with more power than me. It might be because i have guildmates who tell me the best strategies to use, and sometimes I even listen to them.

    But generally speaking, I lose to Shade teams because they have 5300-5600 rune power, and I can't handle that.
    Otherwise, as op as he is, he can be countered.




  • xandrew29 wrote: »
    Lafoote wrote: »
    Thanks MattCauthron, but I didn’t say “I don’t know what I’m talking about.” I said “I don’t like buying PvP tickets & endless grinding.”

    Overall, to answer your questions, I didn’t say kill him first, I said kill him before round 2.

    The problem is killing Shade before round two basically means focusing all your efforts on killing him, which is, essentially, taking him out first.

    I suppose Shadowblade could deal a good chunk of damage and purge Shrouded, allowing someone like Koros, Grog, or Viperia to then eat up the rest of his health unopposed... But then what if they kill your damage dealer? What if Shade kills Shadowblade? What if they have a Grog and slow all your heroes? Not to mention the Shade could just have 2-3 Life/Bulwark runes and not die the first round no matter what you do.

    Battling Shade is essentially playing Russian Roulette - and this game has enough RNG in it to make people angry over random chance already.

    I know you play a ton, but I have to say that Shade isn't a big concern for me; Hopper/Zomm are far more dangerous. I run Shade, Koros, Leo and Sol (w/Sup Guardian). Shade I use vs. Zomm or Hopper (Hopper first). I expect my Koros to die, and then either Leo or Sol to resurrect. My Koros has 1-shotted basically every shade he's ever met, and I've beaten 33,000 power teams with a 22,000 power team of my own. Shade is squishy, moreso vs. Koros.

    You have to adapt to the META. Reptiles were a huge pain until shade came along, and I hated those teams. Vs. Solaris, you need to be smart, but a wide variety of high damage dealers/rez/purgers can win the day.

    Shade is usually the 3rd hero I check for behind Zomm and Hopper and I don't even bother checking his runes anymore. If you let him survive til the 2nd turn, then your team isn't strong enough.

    I've heard a lot of complaints from DR attackers about him; I happen to favor attack over DR and it works out well (usually 4 attack + 1 defense rune) with a rez team.

    And this is exactly what I meant earlier when I said choosing to attack Shade is sacrificing your ability to attack a larger threat.

    Say you focus Solaris/Zomm/Hopper. Great. They're dead. Doesn't matter, though, since Shade will just possess one of them later and the madness starts all over again. Bring Hopper, you say, but Shade will either 1-shot Hopper, or if your Hopper is tanky, kill your other heroes, leaving you with a silly rabbit that does no damage.

    My point is, Shade isn't necessarily a problem on his own. The problem is he's like a road-block. A huge obstacle in your path that can be avoided, but if you're not paying attention you're going to run right into it and die. If you attack Shade, you're losing out. If you don't attack Shade, you're losing out. He's just a jack of all trades - and he's far from a master of none at that.

    I understand you very high-up, top-tier players can usually get around this kind of stuff, but you can at least admit it gets stale, right? Battling the same heroes again and again with the same heroes again and again? Wouldn't it be cool to see heroes like Selwyn, Abigail, or the Demons in PvP and actually have to strategize against them? Even if he's beatable, that doesn't mean he's balanced - Because every hero is beatable. Shade is just way less beatable than all the others (except Solaris and Beasts, of course. They need an even larger nerf).

    I personally really want to see a dwarf team gain traction. I think Valkin, Dagrund and Hagrim have super interesting passives and designs.

    Demons are another group, particularly with malice; I think she has more passives than anyone else, but there's no reason to use her.

    Back to shade, I really do recommend Koros. He removes Shrouded, and without Shrouded, Shade should go down in 1 turn. You shouldn't have to choose between killing Shade or Zomm; blast both in the face with fire. That's my standard dark team (Shade, SB, Hopper, Zomm) counter; use my shade on their Hopper so the corpse can't be removed. SB may kill one of my 4, but if he kills anyone but Koros, I don't care, because Koros is my 1st normal speed hero and can 1-shot the opponent's whole team. If SB kills Koros, well, I can resurrect him with Solaris usually (which is why Hopper needs to be killed first).

    I also have Leo runed for attack; his corpse removal ability is underrated, and he's got great synergy with Sol.

    Try my team out, in this order: Shade, Koros, Leo, Sol.
  • I don't like Shade but nerfing him heavily wouldn't be fair on those players who have invested in him. I think it would be fair just to remove Turn A Blind Eye from him. There's no real reason for him to have it and it makes it impossible to use a reasonable tactic to contain him. He would still be a very powerful hero, just not quite so unavoidably so.
  • JonathanCR wrote: »
    I don't like Shade but nerfing him heavily wouldn't be fair on those players who have invested in him. I think it would be fair just to remove Turn A Blind Eye from him. There's no real reason for him to have it and it makes it impossible to use a reasonable tactic to contain him. He would still be a very powerful hero, just not quite so unavoidably so.

    On the contrary, I think this is the one ability he has which really must stay. Most players need this one thing to be able to deal with reptile decks, as you have to be able to remove the green one before she kills absolutely evening, (including red heroes).

    If you remove this ability from Shade, you would also need to remove the starting taunt ability from Krexx and the half-dozen beasts that get it from Solaris.
  • The "nerfing this hero hurts players who invested in him" argument needs to be squashed and wiped out completely. I'm going to start repeating this point every time the argument rears its head in the hopes that it finally fizzles:

    The existence of an over-powered hero devalues other heroes - are players' investments in them less valid? When MK was OP to the point of nullifying the Undead in PVP (and again, I think he was nerfed too hard), did he not devalue players' investments - or ability to invest in - undead heroes for the purpose of PVP?

    Also, realize that Shade was designed to be OP. It's worth highlighting:
    -VIP hero released around the time of runes whose stint as a VIP exclusive is one of the longest to date
    -5 dark slots means good customization (bulwark and attack runes)
    -Being fast means you can dope him out with attack runes
    -Given an epic not long after release, whose primary stat was attack when he was already a massive damage dealer
    He was designed with the intention of allowing players who spent to rear up a massive-attack hero that the F2Ps couldn't have for a long time. So yeah, he certainly wasn't built with the "we want all heroes to have utility" notion in mind.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    coneyK wrote: »
    The "nerfing this hero hurts players who invested in him" argument needs to be squashed and wiped out completely. I'm going to start repeating this point every time the argument rears its head in the hopes that it finally fizzles:

    The existence of an over-powered hero devalues other heroes - are players' investments in them less valid? When MK was OP to the point of nullifying the Undead in PVP (and again, I think he was nerfed too hard), did he not devalue players' investments - or ability to invest in - undead heroes for the purpose of PVP?

    Also, realize that Shade was designed to be OP. It's worth highlighting:
    -VIP hero released around the time of runes whose stint as a VIP exclusive is one of the longest to date
    -5 dark slots means good customization (bulwark and attack runes)
    -Being fast means you can dope him out with attack runes
    -Given an epic not long after release, whose primary stat was attack when he was already a massive damage dealer
    He was designed with the intention of allowing players who spent to rear up a massive-attack hero that the F2Ps couldn't have for a long time. So yeah, he certainly wasn't built with the "we want all heroes to have utility" notion in mind.

    Amazing way of looking at it. “Devaluing” one hero means raising other heroes’ value in turn. Hopefully that’ll end those arguments.
  • Meh.. trying to think of the last time I avoided Shade in an attack... Can't think of it.

    He's got a glass jaw if you play on his vulnerabilities.
    KashHatton
  • The point is that Shade is vastly stronger than any other hero, especially pre-Solaris. This is simply an objective fact. Opinions of his perceived weakness/strength or 'but I invested stuff!' doesn't change that fact. They've nerfed Bovis, Zen, MK (to the ground) and other heroes that weren't as game breaking, but allow Shade to run rampant since release. Why?

    When one hero completely overshadows all others it creates the idea that he is mandatory. Mandatory choices makes for incredibly stale gameplay. Look at how the pvp landscape been since forever--it's Shades, Shades everywhere. I would bet 95/100 of BossPlayers use Shade on both attack and defense.
    If that's not good reason to call this game DungeonBoss ShadeBoss idk what is.
    the amount of Shades in this game...is just TOO DANG HIGH!
  • Ultimately he is is a wild card that will attacks someone, may or may not kill them, and regardless, can be killed the very next turn by koros, so it doesn't really matter. If shade sticks around to deploy spirit link, you are... asleep. Then that would be bad. However if you kill him first turn, which is not hard, he won't give any real problems.
    Awesome Farfella guy up there was created by jackhallow666^!!!
    Also, go gorgons!
  • Killing Shade on the first turn on multiple Tower floors is not always possible, I don’t have 6 Koros to tackle 6 floors with a now runed Shade. I also don’t have multiple Zomms to try to take out multiple Solaris teams. The adding of runes to the Tower combined with what I view as OP defenders has made the Tower unbeatable now for me well over half of the time. I don’t PvP much so being able to gather gems in the Tower to advance is more important. I don’t think PvP would be viable in the current meta and allow win streaks if once you lost Koros in one match he was no longer available for the next team with a Shade defense.
  • The Tower is certainly a concern. I still manage to finish just about every day, but it’s definitely punishing to players that don’t have a deep lineup. If the Zomm effect is ever removed, a majority players will probably be regularly unable to finish. Capping the max number of opposing Legendary heroes per run rather than nerfing them might be a good solution.
  • I agree a couple of the most powerful legendaries is generally workable 4 to 8 is a little ridiculous. I’m also more inclined to remove runes from both sides rather than adding them to the defenders, facing an array of unknown runes for 11 floors makes the randomness factor even more annoying than the normal RNG.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    I hate how Shade can have any Rune build he wants. If you see an IGOROK, you can safely assume he’s going to do some damage, but be more tanky than anything. If you see a Koros, he’s probably gonna be full damage.

    Shade though? Who knows. Probably damage, but maybe they made him tanky so he can use Spirit Link and Possession a lot. So he can keep shrouding his allies with epic attacks, and generally annoy the heck out of you. Or maybe he’s a mix of both. But how much? 1-4? 2-3? More offensive or more defensive?
  • If only they gave you the ability to inspect runes before attacking... If only...
  • PardonPardon Member
    @Joel Shade is amazing but leave him as he is...don't do the same mistake you did with Kira that now is useless.....by the way give us back the old Kira, eventually leaving 1.5 against undead instead of 3
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    FatCat69 wrote: »
    If only they gave you the ability to inspect runes before attacking... If only...

    They don’t in the tower.

    Also if he has a couple ‘Champion’ or ‘Duelist’ runes they can still really be anything.
  • farfella wrote: »
    However if you kill him first turn, which is not hard, he won't give any real problems.

    So you're saying that if we kill Shade he isn't much of a threat anymore. Cool.
  • coneyK wrote: »
    Also, realize that Shade was designed to be OP.

    I can forgive poor implementation, but if Shade was genuinely intended to out perform this way, then that reduces my regard for the developers more significantly.
  • bvs72bvs72 Member
    I think Shade needs a buff to allow him to take out a 5 or 6 Star Goretusk.
  • Based on my Tower run today you maybe right, I couldn’t find anything to make it through a level 63 team with Koros, Goretusk, Grog and Solaris. They wiped out everything I sent at them without my being able to do anything Solaris didn’t heal.
  • Shade is fine, if you don't know how to counter shade, ask instead of demanding an unnecessary nerf.
    Oh the profanity!
  • "FINE"???!!! "FINE"???!! ok let me not lose it. Yes shade has many counters but how will your counters work if you cant debuff, and your facing diehard level 70 vip10 players? Ive killed many shade teams, but he is ANYTHING but fine the way he is. He needs a nerf, rather make dark shroud work like impervious instead of granting immunity to all debuffs or remove turn a blind eye. This dude can be stacked up for 100% attack, and alongside that he is fast. If you haven't realized yet shade legit killed the use for about 40 heroes. Literally about 40. People like indigo, useless now. Icebloom. Igorok, even after a buff isn't a match for shade teams. People like light heroes. U S E L E S S. Whatever you do a shade team can counter it. The only way to do pvp now is to use these new heroes, or buffed old heroes made to adapt to the meta, or you'll get nowhere. You cant even use old heroes who were glass cannons because hopper got em covered if you plan on using revive teams. (Not saying beast teams are balanced though) Without a doubt you can say that before pvp heroes, (before kai) pvp metas didn't exist, everyone strategized their defense. It was quite diverse, and you had to change your raid team for every raid to strategize what your gonna do. Now its just go in, and win, or horribly loose. You used to have that exciting feeling when you did PvP, seeing if your plan will work or will it backfire, and then seeing if you can climb up even with a change of plans. Now its 1 important hero is dead, you might as well just stop trying at this point. PvP is literally the only reason people use runes or even play this game, because in the end your doing it for pvp. Not campaign, but PvP.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
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  • KnurtKnurt Member
    So. This kinda got out of hand.

    I agree. Shade should be weakened.

    Stats, traits or abilities though?
    Level:65
    please send arcane evos
    Favorite Hero: Hopper
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    Knurt wrote: »
    So. This kinda got out of hand.

    I agree. Shade should be weakened.

    Stats, traits or abilities though?

    - Remove Turn a Blind Eye.
    - Reduce damage from Haunted Past.
    - Make Spirit Link only block up to 75% of the damage dealt, not 100%.
    - When Shade possess a hero, their abilities should be at whatever energy levels they were when they died - Not fully charged.
    On the flip side, however,
    - Spirit Link could deal 50% of his Atk as Magic damage to the target each turn.
    - Possessing a dead hero could heal Shade up to 100% Health and remove debuffs.
  • Ududu2 wrote: »
    Turns out shade is kinda useless against heros he can't use his abilities on! I've been using Solaris, furnace, bauble and Ekko or my own shade, and even with just furnace for some strange reason his taunt completely negates shade from using his spirit link on any other hero (which might be worse when he has his epic)

    Shade is immune to taunt and provoke. You must just be lucky that your opponent is either stupid or an ai defender.
  • danacdanac Member
    Knurt wrote: »
    So. This kinda got out of hand.

    I agree. Shade should be weakened.

    Stats, traits or abilities though?

    - Remove Turn a Blind Eye.
    - Reduce damage from Haunted Past.
    - Make Spirit Link only block up to 75% of the damage dealt, not 100%.
    - When Shade possess a hero, their abilities should be at whatever energy levels they were when they died - Not fully charged.
    On the flip side, however,
    - Spirit Link could deal 50% of his Atk as Magic damage to the target each turn.
    - Possessing a dead hero could heal Shade up to 100% Health and remove debuffs.

    way too much. I'd say either make dark shroud have no DR but prevent debuffs, or vice versa.
  • LafooteLafoote Member
    edited January 6
    Derision wrote: »
    Shade is fine, if you don't know how to counter shade, ask instead of demanding an unnecessary nerf.

    I think Shade is fine too. However, a hero having a hard counter does not automatically make a hero balanced.

  • Deathrift_ wrote: »
    "FINE"???!!! "FINE"???!! ok let me not lose it. Yes shade has many counters but how will your counters work if you cant debuff, and your facing diehard level 70 vip10 players? Ive killed many shade teams, but he is ANYTHING but fine the way he is. He needs a nerf, rather make dark shroud work like impervious instead of granting immunity to all debuffs or remove turn a blind eye. This dude can be stacked up for 100% attack, and alongside that he is fast. If you haven't realized yet shade legit killed the use for about 40 heroes. Literally about 40. People like indigo, useless now. Icebloom. Igorok, even after a buff isn't a match for shade teams. People like light heroes. U S E L E S S. Whatever you do a shade team can counter it. The only way to do pvp now is to use these new heroes, or buffed old heroes made to adapt to the meta, or you'll get nowhere. You cant even use old heroes who were glass cannons because hopper got em covered if you plan on using revive teams. (Not saying beast teams are balanced though) Without a doubt you can say that before pvp heroes, (before kai) pvp metas didn't exist, everyone strategized their defense. It was quite diverse, and you had to change your raid team for every raid to strategize what your gonna do. Now its just go in, and win, or horribly loose. You used to have that exciting feeling when you did PvP, seeing if your plan will work or will it backfire, and then seeing if you can climb up even with a change of plans. Now its 1 important hero is dead, you might as well just stop trying at this point. PvP is literally the only reason people use runes or even play this game, because in the end your doing it for pvp. Not campaign, but PvP.
    use a bait hero as first target for enemy shade, have your highest power hero strike first, and have everyone's favorite rabbit on the roster, problem solved.
    Oh the profanity!
  • DerisionDerision Member
    edited January 10
    Deathrift_ wrote: »
    "FINE"???!!! "FINE"???!! ok let me not lose it. Yes shade has many counters but how will your counters work if you cant debuff, and your facing diehard level 70 vip10 players? Ive killed many shade teams, but he is ANYTHING but fine the way he is. He needs a nerf, rather make dark shroud work like impervious instead of granting immunity to all debuffs or remove turn a blind eye. This dude can be stacked up for 100% attack, and alongside that he is fast. If you haven't realized yet shade legit killed the use for about 40 heroes. Literally about 40. People like indigo, useless now. Icebloom. Igorok, even after a buff isn't a match for shade teams. People like light heroes. U S E L E S S. Whatever you do a shade team can counter it. The only way to do pvp now is to use these new heroes, or buffed old heroes made to adapt to the meta, or you'll get nowhere. You cant even use old heroes who were glass cannons because hopper got em covered if you plan on using revive teams. (Not saying beast teams are balanced though) Without a doubt you can say that before pvp heroes, (before kai) pvp metas didn't exist, everyone strategized their defense. It was quite diverse, and you had to change your raid team for every raid to strategize what your gonna do. Now its just go in, and win, or horribly loose. You used to have that exciting feeling when you did PvP, seeing if your plan will work or will it backfire, and then seeing if you can climb up even with a change of plans. Now its 1 important hero is dead, you might as well just stop trying at this point. PvP is literally the only reason people use runes or even play this game, because in the end your doing it for pvp. Not campaign, but PvP.

    use a low health bait hero for shades first attack, have you highest damage hero lined of for next hit, have everyone's favorite rabbit or lord zom. its not hard to counter shade.

    now if you're having a hard time countering shade, i would avoid annoying team combos altogether that would make that countering less plausible.

    if all else fails, burn it with fire.


    Oh the profanity!
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