Solaris

Yykkil

I'm aware this is a hot topic in the ToP and I'm aware there's two sides to this argument; those who defend the tower as a genuine challenge and those who want to see changes.

Yesterday, I had 6 Solaris beast teams in my daily Tower, so I thought, **** it, I'll just leave it for today and try tomorrow. Today, I only had 4 Solaris teams - an improvement. I couldn't even get past the first one using my IGOROK + Grog Nog + Hopper team.

In other words, I don't think the ToP should be gated by runes to qualify as a 'challenge'. I firmly disagree it should be this much of a 'challenge', because it was already a time-sink to begin with, doing one every day. What I always liked about Dungeon Boss is that you essentially got 300 Gems for free every day for doing basically nothing but tapping 12 times, which is something virtually no other mobile game does. Call me lazy but this was a genuine selling point of actually playing the game. This did not impact the money I decided to spend on this game.

The tower was a way of grinding out intermediate currencies to obtain useful artifacts (hero stars, evos, hero tokens, etc). The current iteration of the tower requires you to have a properly runed up roster to obtaining these things - so even if I want to grind out the tower to get enough points to buy Arcane evos so I can ascend my own Solaris so I can do more tower levels, I'm limited by how many Tower teams are not crazily runed and/or Solaris-based.

If the intent is the Tower to be challenging yet fair, I argue that removing runes entirely from all teams during ToP runs is the most fair thing, which actually makes having a large roster and collecting hero stars important - more important that runes. This way, regardless of your progression, Tower is always a challenge.

Yes, I know my opinion is unpopular - here it is anyway. Feel free to agree or rip my guts out.

FatCat69

So because you can't beat a level with Igo GG and Hopper we need to change the tower? Maybe that isn't the best team to beat the Solaris teams with.

And tapping a button 12 times to get 300 gems doesn't sound like much fun to me.

My only complaint with the tower is that we have no way of explaining to them what's broken because we can't point at a specific defense that shows uncharacteristic behavior.

For example, there is a (are several?) level 63 beast team that hit like a truck and take very little damage. Since we can't see the name of the defender and can't see their runes, we can't point to that one defense and say "this feels unfair/broken; test this."

RedE2Quit

I would like to see both sides of the Tower de-runed at least for a trial period. Since as mentioned above you can’t see the defenders runes it is difficult to determine if this explains lower level teams that take little damage and hit like a freight train or if there really is something wrong some of the time.

FatCat69

I still hate the idea of deruning anyone. It basically makes investment in good runes less valuable. We should be encouraging new players to equip and develop good builds of runes on their heroes.

The problem is it feels like something is broken but we can't specify exactly what/where feels broken, so their assurances that "everything is working fine" feel empty and hollow. Because for the most part, yeah, the tower feels fine, but these edge cases definitely feel broken.

Yykkil

No, the mentioning of my team was purely illustrative. It isn't the heroes specifically - its the runes - combined with multiple Solaris teams.

Everyone who can beat the tower consistently will have a strong roster of Legendary to Heroic runes - I do not think it is possible to do it without, particularly at level 70. And I don't think this should be necessary.

Previously you could just throw random team after random team against every floor and you'd likely be able to clear it out - this meant strategy was largely completely unnecessary, which isn't necessarily something I'm defending, but it also meant it was more accessible to those without 'meta' heroes or powerful runes.

Assuming the Tower shadows defense comps from real player PvP defense comps, this makes the tower even more inaccessible. You're effectively competing against other players [comps] for Tower rewards; this is not really different from regular PvP - and PvP should be distinctly separate from ToP. Or else you might as well call it the PvP tower, and I'm certain more people see ToP as a PvE implementation than PvP.

MrTheWaffleKing

I feel like the tower is a good place to test new runes against hard teams without a chance of losing honor. Runes are a pivotal part of the game and to take them away for certain parts would be a mistake.

Yykkil

Right, but central to the discussion is also the prevalence of Solaris teams. Having to fight through 6 runed up Solaris teams is, quite frankly, insane to me.

NemoBait

If you want arcane evos get them in the honor shop when they appear

danac

Yykkil wrote: »

Previously you could just throw random team after random team against every floor and you'd likely be able to clear it out - this meant strategy was largely completely unnecessary, which isn't necessarily something I'm defending, but it also meant it was more accessible to those without 'meta' heroes or powerful runes.

I could call you spoiled, but people who began the game with an easier tower naturally want and expect the tower to continue to be an easy 270 gem source.

But the tower was a real challenge before runes, it was much more difficult than it is even now because you had only a little more than half the number of heroes you have now. And only one that could revive anyone.
What's more, if you were under level 70, defenses could be 10 levels higher and more stars than you.
Those of us who started with such towers don't take it for granted.
yeah, there were a few months when I could send in a team of rogues and hit auto and clear 11 floors in 10 minutes. But considering how hard it was to begin with I still think y'all have it lucky.

Doage

danac wrote: »

Yykkil wrote: »

Previously you could just throw random team after random team against every floor and you'd likely be able to clear it out - this meant strategy was largely completely unnecessary, which isn't necessarily something I'm defending, but it also meant it was more accessible to those without 'meta' heroes or powerful runes.

I could call you spoiled, but people who began the game with an easier tower naturally want and expect the tower to continue to be an easy 270 gem source.

But the tower was a real challenge before runes, it was much more difficult than it is even now because you had only a little more than half the number of heroes you have now. And only one that could revive anyone.
What's more, if you were under level 70, defenses could be 10 levels higher and more stars than you.
Those of us who started with such towers don't take it for granted.
yeah, there were a few months when I could send in a team of rogues and hit auto and clear 11 floors in 10 minutes. But considering how hard it was to begin with I still think y'all have it lucky.

I remember when the tower first came out. It was hard. The tower we have now is beyond easy. I am severely disappointed with how easy the tower is now

MrTheWaffleKing

Doage wrote: »

danac wrote: »

Yykkil wrote: »

Previously you could just throw random team after random team against every floor and you'd likely be able to clear it out - this meant strategy was largely completely unnecessary, which isn't necessarily something I'm defending, but it also meant it was more accessible to those without 'meta' heroes or powerful runes.

I could call you spoiled, but people who began the game with an easier tower naturally want and expect the tower to continue to be an easy 270 gem source.

But the tower was a real challenge before runes, it was much more difficult than it is even now because you had only a little more than half the number of heroes you have now. And only one that could revive anyone.
What's more, if you were under level 70, defenses could be 10 levels higher and more stars than you.
Those of us who started with such towers don't take it for granted.
yeah, there were a few months when I could send in a team of rogues and hit auto and clear 11 floors in 10 minutes. But considering how hard it was to begin with I still think y'all have it lucky.

I remember when the tower first came out. It was hard. The tower we have now is beyond easy. I am severely disappointed with how easy the tower is now

Now, there isn't even that much Solaris tower teams. I feel like they made it easier without telling anyone. Even if there were 6 Solaris GT teams, I would only lose 2 people from my main team unless it get really unlucky. It's still very easy.

Yykkil

danac wrote: »

I could call you spoiled, but people who began the game with an easier tower naturally want and expect the tower to continue to be an easy 270 gem source.

Right, this is partially how I feel about it. Although I don't expect it to be 'easy', I do expect to be able to beat it without an entire roster of meta heroes and Legendary runes. Just today I encountered an Agnon who literally one-shot all my strongest heroes, and there's nothing I could have done about it. The Agnon was 5 starred so I had an expectation it would be a tough fight - most likely someone who spends quite a bit - but that stonewalled the rest of my tower run completely. I find the argument 'it was hard, then it was easier, so going back to hard is fine' doesn't answer my question as to how someone is meant to beat these kinds of teams, where the enemy is simply runed up higher than you and there's nothing in your power you can do.

danac

Yykkil wrote: »

I find the argument 'it was hard, then it was easier, so going back to hard is fine' doesn't answer my question as to how someone is meant to beat these kinds of teams, where the enemy is simply runed up higher than you and there's nothing in your power you can do.

Start planning and using bait teams.
earlier towers took actual planning of who to send in when. Using bait to draw out specials or partially clear a room so your strong teams don't get wiped
With Agnon, it seems you'll probably need to plan a team using Lilly, Koros, Or Viper, in some combination.

darren

How about if ToP has the same limitation as player ? As in once a hero dies, the hero will not reappear in the tower..
That's what the player has to deal with, why not the same for the AI ?
OK, someone may say they want a challenge, so maybe same hero can reappear once (total of 2 times) because of some evil magical power or some cosmic alignment of all the planets (**whatever story you like )...
This way, we wont have to deal with 6x Solaris ..

MrTheWaffleKing

darren wrote: »

How about if ToP has the same limitation as player ? As in once a hero dies, the hero will not reappear in the tower..
That's what the player has to deal with, why not the same for the AI ?
OK, someone may say they want a challenge, so maybe same hero can reappear once (total of 2 times) because of some evil magical power or some cosmic alignment of all the planets (**whatever story you like )...
This way, we wont have to deal with 6x Solaris ..

But then the hard teams would keep coming back... you can't make it easier by making a harder problem.

AC_Royale

There is no unbeatble team.
Every team has its weakness.
Play better strategy, smarter and with bait.
havent missed a complete tower in I dont know how long.
It sometimes takes a bit more time and brainpower, thats it.

echonap

I just recently inherited a level 70 account from a retiring player. Terrible runes (lots of naked slots and greater rares, some greater heroic, and less than a handful of legendary runes). Missing lots of key heroes (Lily, Ferno, Hopper, Solaris). Most of the recent heroes are less than 6 stars. No epic on Zomm.

So far, I have yet to miss clearing a tower with this account. If you are complaining that you cannot beat the tower, make no mistake, it is a PEBCAK issue (Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard). Instead of complaining about the difficulty, learn to play the game correctly.

“Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one” - Bruce Lee

tthebone

I have one team with runes on it to run the tower and do pvp every day. Because I only have one good team I know what heroes I need to watch out for. I use shade, executum zomm brom. I know the shroud can take care of most things in the tower, but i need to watch out for koros/viperia (or at least koros with igorok after). I know lily will destroy me if sapping vines goes off, so i have to bait those guys. I know that I need to save broms doom blade or zomms taste for brains if I have a tough solaris team coming up. You need to understand your team and its counters as well as the opponents teams.

RedE2Quit

Win or lose in the Tower the insane level of healing and resurrecting Solaris beast teams have brought to the game is ridiculously stupid. Who wants to spend the Tower time needed to fight the same battles over and over, half the time I quit out of sheer boredom and frustration with what I view as a broken gameplay experience.

Yykkil

90% of my roster is bait, maybe that's my issue. I rely on 8 heroes in my roster (MK, Viperia, Krexx, Cobressa, Shade, Shadowblade, IGOROK, Grog Gnog), the rest of my roster is effectively unruned. I have Legendary runes on the first 4, the rest have Greater/Improved Heroic etc. I have every hero except Marrow available. Any suggestions on what heroes I should be replacing? I hail from the MK meta and haven't updated my rune applications since.

echonap

A defensive Zomm is key, since minions resurrect between floors. I run an offensive leaning Shade, glass cannon SB and Agnon.

If you are struggling against Solaris, it's because you don't understand her AI. She rarely ever resurrects against me. In the event that she is ashes and I cannot finish the round, Zomm eats her brains. Otherwise, I never leave her standing by herself. Simple.

Here's a tip. If none of your guys are minions, it's Zomm's turn before the round is over, and there's one enemy left. Instead of killing him, use Filet Minion. Everyone gets +1 energy from the special move, and another +1 energy for the end of the round. Then kill him next round like normal and profit 2 extra energy.

sirtainly

I've developed a goto team for the tower, a backup team, and a last resort team.

There have been times when I've had to rely on the rest of the roster to clean up, but its rare. Fortunately for me I've developed a pretty good roster (which hurts me in pvp.) One day earlier this year I was left with only Ekko at level 12, -THAT- was close. Good thing he was runed and epic'd.

I used to be very very frustrated until I learned about how solaris, zomm and some others work. I'm still learning, but my roster is strong enough to power through some of the rough edges i haven't figured out yet.

My strategy is endurance...with some exceptions I can outlast/beat down the nastiest teams...but it takes time. Right now I have enough time in the day, but if I get busier I just won't have the time to complete it. And I admit, its not that much fun when it takes this long.

I'm a tortoise who envies the hare. (Old fable reference.)

Stinky

Yykkil wrote: »

90% of my roster is bait, maybe that's my issue. I rely on 8 heroes in my roster (MK, Viperia, Krexx, Cobressa, Shade, Shadowblade, IGOROK, Grog Gnog), the rest of my roster is effectively unruned. I have Legendary runes on the first 4, the rest have Greater/Improved Heroic etc. I have every hero except Marrow available. Any suggestions on what heroes I should be replacing? I hail from the MK meta and haven't updated my rune applications since.

Feel free to take my advice with a pinch of salt, since I'm only ~level 55, but out of your A Team heroes, only Grog really helps out with party-wide defences. I started making headway into the tower once my Goretusk was fully ascended: Mammoth Guard will mitigate a vast amount of damage over the course of a tower run. There's also Ferno's Aerial Superiority.

spiffymcbang

Yykkil wrote: »

Any suggestions on what heroes I should be replacing? I hail from the MK meta and haven't updated my rune applications since.

see this thread, only one thread down from here:
http://forum.dungeonboss.com/discussion/58310/my-tower-speed-team#latest

it might help give ideas on how to move your rune around.

tthebone

Yykkil wrote: »

90% of my roster is bait, maybe that's my issue. I rely on 8 heroes in my roster (MK, Viperia, Krexx, Cobressa, Shade, Shadowblade, IGOROK, Grog Gnog), the rest of my roster is effectively unruned.

Well this is your problem, you need somone like zomm or solaris to revive mons from floor to floor if you only use a handful of heroes. I would heavily advise getting zomm or solaris as quickly as possible and building them as tanky as you can.

Yykkil

So from what all of you say, it sounds like without Zomm or Solaris, your chances at beating the tower seem to be much lower. Just yesterday I had a tower with 7 Solaris teams and I got to floor 8 and had to give up there. I'll see what happens today.

Thanks for the link Spiffy, it was actually really helpful. And not to sound pretentious Echonap, but I believe I do understand Solaris's AI, but some Solarises are so **** tanky I can't take her out even after using 3 or 4 target damage abilities.

Also, Zomm brings back your allies to the next floor? That ability is not listed anywhere. If it is, I'm blind & apologise, if it isn't then isn't it abuse of game mechanics?

As for Goretusk, I didn't realise his Mammoth Guard reduced damage by such a high degree - jeez. No wonder AoE wasn't doing anything even after purging his taunt - DR from momentum is separate...

tthebone

If a zomminion is brought up in a heroes place and you end the floor with a zomminion alive, you get the hero who was in that place back at the same health as the zomminion. Its pretty good

RedE2Quit

I’ve been working with my Zomm team, usually Shade, Hansuke & Zomm are regulars, I’ve had GT in with them before and have started using him with Solaris instead. Tried Ekko and Ferno just to see what I thought, neither seemed to bring much to the party. Any other suggestions on who to try next? The last few days it seems like my Zomm team is not working well so I’m looking to experiment, thanks for any ideas.

Frogatism

Solaris based teams are nearly impossible to defeat. I’ve never struggled with completing the tower until Solaris came into db,what does that tell me? Well two things, Solaris has made more of an impact than any other hero since the introduction of ToP. And two, I don’t have a full proof way to defeat Solaris based teams.. not quite anyway. I do have my go to teams that make it easier to defeat them, but it’s not guaranteed. The reasons in which make it not a guarantee do seem unbalanced and places us at a disadvantage in my opinion and I hope it’s toned down in the near future. If it’s not toned down or made a little bit more fair, then I guess I’ll have to create extremely powerful runes that are out of reach for most db players and fend off the Solaris powerhouse until meh eyes bleed. Anywho, best of luck to y’all struggling with the Solaris teams and just know that you’re not suffering alone!

toothlessmon

Frog use jabber, if you have Solaris great! But you don't need Solaris, jabber will always 1 shot anything, just have a really offensive team and your good to go, I had this one unlucky tower, my Solaris got eaten by Zomm level 10... But yet I made it to level 12 and won because of the high aggro of my guys (spec jabber... Maybe a bit bovus but mainly jabber)

P.S don't tune jabber with more then two attack runes... All runes need a majority of health runes, also never use jabber if Ella and anything that makes him attack allies if they goes first, once Ella triggered his epic twice with her special attack and wiped my entire team but jabber

MrTheWaffleKing

toothlessmon wrote: »

Frog use jabber, if you have Solaris great! But you don't need Solaris, jabber will always 1 shot anything, just have a really offensive team and your good to go, I had this one unlucky tower, my Solaris got eaten by Zomm level 10... But yet I made it to level 12 and won because of the high aggro of my guys (spec jabber... Maybe a bit bovus but mainly jabber)

P.S don't tune jabber with more then two attack runes... All runes need a majority of health runes, also never use jabber if Ella and anything that makes him attack allies if they goes first, once Ella triggered his epic twice with her special attack and wiped my entire team but jabber

LOL. I've had the same thing happen for Grog-Gnog.