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PvP and RNG
I mentioned this topic two summits ago, but I thought maybe some discussion on it could bring it further into the light for developers. I've been doing a lot of thinking on the current state of PvP. Mostly what it is about pvp that I enjoy and what it is that I dislike.
Enjoy:
1) Seeing new defenses and having to think through a solution making sure my team can handle as many poor outcomes as possible
2) Competing against the best so that the offense I bring matters and one small misplay means a loss. (ie I brought emily to a match earlier when I should have brought zen to take care of a Kai drenched debuff and it cost me the game. My mistake. My loss. Frustrating but it's entirely my fault.)
Do Not Enjoy (Read levels of rage so high they are not quantifiable on the under 9,000 scale)
1) Losing to things out of my control on a consistent and regular basis. These include defenses with shade/sb start where depending on who they attack can completely take out my offense before I have a chance to move. MK dodging/tenacity/epic procing and to a lesser extend SB doing the same thing now. MK critting all my heroes to death despite being diseased ect
2)Seeing the same small sub set of player defenses over and over ad nauseum
3) The overall feeling of gambling related to pvp as opposed to skill which I felt strong pre-runes.
4) Dodge as a stat overall. I think this needs a separate line as I'm specifically referring to dodge on runes. Losing to a defense because a key hero had 2% dodge feels TERRIBLE. (I lost to a koros dodge just earlier). You were robbed of thousands of trophies and hundreds of gems from your streak. A 2% dodge isn't anything you would ever play around (Unless you had a 100% win team that didn't care if they dodged of course which is rarely the case).
I believe pvp focusing on the first two points, while trying to negate the bottom four points would make for a significantly more positive pvp experience for everyone. A certain level of rng is healthy for the game, but I believe the game has tipped too far in the direction of random uncontrollable outcomes deciding games. Runes make this issue worse as the power level of runes means if a single hero that was suppose to die round 1 does not... your whole team is dead.
My suggestions (Throwing pasta at the wall here to see what sticks. I'm sure we can come up with a lot of great things)
1) Reduce RNG overall. Start by toning down MKs dodge and removing tenacity. (At this point I wouldn't care if you deleted him from the game). Have AI targetting be more consistent or reduce fast heroes one shot capabilities. (Barring other synergistic buffs ie: ember/Lupina/Shade into SB makes SB do more damage.)
2) Consider making epic procs only happen in PvE. I know this hasn't really been mentioned, but I think it's a pretty big deal. Nothing is more infuriating than losing to back to back 30% epic proc probabilities when they essentially always cause a one shot. You still get to keep the epic stat increase for pvp however.
3) Continue to fix matchmaking. I should NOT be seeing the same person back to back on refreshes (Last night I actually refreshed just to be given 2 of the 3 exact same people).
These are just my thoughts from doing 40+ matches a day since preseason 2. In the current form, my frustration at the system FAR outweighs my enjoyment. Losses due to uncontrollable RNG is at the core of that frustration. No, the answer is not "get all superior legendary 5 star runes so that you can overcome RNG altogether". That only further implicates how broken rune balance becomes at the superior legendary level.
Enjoy:
1) Seeing new defenses and having to think through a solution making sure my team can handle as many poor outcomes as possible
2) Competing against the best so that the offense I bring matters and one small misplay means a loss. (ie I brought emily to a match earlier when I should have brought zen to take care of a Kai drenched debuff and it cost me the game. My mistake. My loss. Frustrating but it's entirely my fault.)
Do Not Enjoy (Read levels of rage so high they are not quantifiable on the under 9,000 scale)
1) Losing to things out of my control on a consistent and regular basis. These include defenses with shade/sb start where depending on who they attack can completely take out my offense before I have a chance to move. MK dodging/tenacity/epic procing and to a lesser extend SB doing the same thing now. MK critting all my heroes to death despite being diseased ect
2)Seeing the same small sub set of player defenses over and over ad nauseum
3) The overall feeling of gambling related to pvp as opposed to skill which I felt strong pre-runes.
4) Dodge as a stat overall. I think this needs a separate line as I'm specifically referring to dodge on runes. Losing to a defense because a key hero had 2% dodge feels TERRIBLE. (I lost to a koros dodge just earlier). You were robbed of thousands of trophies and hundreds of gems from your streak. A 2% dodge isn't anything you would ever play around (Unless you had a 100% win team that didn't care if they dodged of course which is rarely the case).
I believe pvp focusing on the first two points, while trying to negate the bottom four points would make for a significantly more positive pvp experience for everyone. A certain level of rng is healthy for the game, but I believe the game has tipped too far in the direction of random uncontrollable outcomes deciding games. Runes make this issue worse as the power level of runes means if a single hero that was suppose to die round 1 does not... your whole team is dead.
My suggestions (Throwing pasta at the wall here to see what sticks. I'm sure we can come up with a lot of great things)
1) Reduce RNG overall. Start by toning down MKs dodge and removing tenacity. (At this point I wouldn't care if you deleted him from the game). Have AI targetting be more consistent or reduce fast heroes one shot capabilities. (Barring other synergistic buffs ie: ember/Lupina/Shade into SB makes SB do more damage.)
2) Consider making epic procs only happen in PvE. I know this hasn't really been mentioned, but I think it's a pretty big deal. Nothing is more infuriating than losing to back to back 30% epic proc probabilities when they essentially always cause a one shot. You still get to keep the epic stat increase for pvp however.
3) Continue to fix matchmaking. I should NOT be seeing the same person back to back on refreshes (Last night I actually refreshed just to be given 2 of the 3 exact same people).
These are just my thoughts from doing 40+ matches a day since preseason 2. In the current form, my frustration at the system FAR outweighs my enjoyment. Losses due to uncontrollable RNG is at the core of that frustration. No, the answer is not "get all superior legendary 5 star runes so that you can overcome RNG altogether". That only further implicates how broken rune balance becomes at the superior legendary level.
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Comments
To be fair I did 40+ raids a day under the old system. I just enjoyed myself much more so while doing it. They also generally took much less time. I spend 5-10 minutes simply killing Emily far too often.
As someone who obtained VIP 10 in about 50 days solely bc I enjoyed the PvP this is a bit disappointing.
MK is annoying, but the most infuriating thing for me is when a key Hero who lacks any natural Dodge has 1 Rune for it and manages to Dodge...GG
Mauling Ogres Lv70
The problem is you lose most of the battles due to something you cannot control, just as you said. It's part of the mechanics of the game at this point and these core issues need to be addressed or it will only become worse for those trying to rise up to compete in the next couple months. I want competition in PvP and this is crushing the future rockstars down before they have a chance to become someone I say, "Man, not this guy again, how can I beat this?"
Mauling Ogres Lv70
That's no longer true actually. They removed the "being active" part from matchmaking requirement. They actually try to make everyone have an equal amount of attacks before rotating everyone back into the pool. What that leads to of course is all the hardest defenses being left at certain times b/c everyone avoids them... still not an ideal system if you ask me. (I was refreshing late last night and only seeing the hardest defenses over and over that noone wanted to fight but since their total fights were lower they were the only ones showing up).
I have a couple of issues with with removing epics.
1. Certain hero's are playable in PVP because of epics. If they couldn't use their epic I wouldn't be able to use them. For example I use Yasmin quite a bit to grind out victories against Emily, Bauble, and Furnace teams.
2. Way to kill Emily or Astrid. I've had many battles where I could only damage Emily when an epic went off.
1) Props to you for using Yasmin! There are plenty of other available counters however
2) This won't be an issue once they fix DR.
I would argue those are also incredibly minor compared to the ability for epic procs to literally instantly make you lose games as they essentially one shot anyone. SB's is the worst yet by far.
I agree. Yasmin has been seeing some action in pvp, and I don't really use any of her abilities. I think that if Kira wasn't so annoying with tenacity and then firing off his epic all the time we wouldn't be thinking about epic attacks at all.
I think MK, SB, and Shade are all equal offenders of epic procs deciding games. Health simply isn't balanced around an attack doing 2 or 3x damage. It makes every auto attack read "30% chance to kill your target" in many cases. It's great fun in PvE but I really think it's makes for a much less competitive PvP environment. (Going back to RNG determining too many outcomes)
This issue will only get worse once they "fix" DR.
First of all, I have for some time now enjoyed reading your frequent posts to this forum. I consider you one of the many high valuable contributors here.
I must strongly disagree with you on #1 and #4 from your "Do Not Enjoy" list. I made a point of this to my GM when the notes from the summit a couple weeks ago were shared with my guild. A short guild chat had almost everyone agreeing with my point of view (limited sample of the entire guild though) and I intend to lobby my GM to argue against reducing randomness in the current PvP if/when it comes up at the summit again.
I think the current level of randomness is healthy to PvP. This is of course my opinion based on what I value.
Here are my reasons.
1) Losing always feels bad. Period. It does not matter to me if it is due to a mistake or an unlucky dodge. I have had a defending Koros who must have had at best a 5% dodge chance do so not once but twice to me in back to back matches versus that same player. Them's the breaks and good/bad luck goes both ways.
2) Dodging skill on a rune is like any other skill. It is useful to its owner. Saying you do not like dodge on a defender hero's rune is like saying you do not like attack on a rune as well. The difference is that attack is always in play and dodge is seldom by comparison a factor. As an attacker, you can take these things into account before you attack. I will grant you that in most cases, you cannot tell if dodge is on a rune or not when you probe a defense but...would you rather that superior power rune had 2% dodge on it or more critical? By the same token, you cannot tell if that same rune has a fourth ability on it such as electric skin. Oh well. That same hidden advantage can be used on your defense.
Having said this, you may prefer chess to poker and you do not like randomness in your PvP. That is fine, I am just pointing out my different take on it.
3) I do not want a predefined, 100% every time outcome to be the norm in PvP. For me, it would be boring if I knew going into every PvP round what the outcome was going to be. At that point, I would simply catalog every team versus each defense and refer to it as I paid for my trophies. Once the proper keys were identified and shared, everyone's defense would get wrecked even more than now.
I have seen some arguments here in the forums that say "RNG ruins strategy." IMO, it does not. Good strategy puts you in the best position to win, it does not guarantee a win.
Let us take the aforementioned example of a defense that has SB/Shade as its openers (so very common in the top 100 right now). When I first starting seeing this one in great numbers, I mostly lost so I put it out as my own defense to see how others were handling it and within an hour or so, I had my answer. With some additional sage advice from guild-mates, I now mostly win versus that defensive combo. In this example, better strategy paid off in a huge way.
4) I do not feel players should be guaranteed long win streaks just cause they are willing to spend. That was the case in the old system, a system I really never liked much. Except for a current unbalanced and rare rune ability right now, even the highest skilled and paying players in the game will not go on long win streaks very often. I am fine with this but obviously, some players are not which is their equally valid opinion.
5) Randomness, for me, adds to the tension and excitement of the match. There are many times when I need MK to not dodge and I am solely focused on his animation. It is intense.
Randomness goes both ways. Sometimes I win because of it, sometimes not.
You mentioned you hate being "robbed" of thousands of trophies due to randomness. So, what are trophies really? They are a comparative measure of your time, roster power and interest in PvPing. At the end of the day, you are competing on those factors. Given that randomness is applied evenly to you and those players you are competing with, they too are being "robbed." Hence, at the end of the day, randomness has no real bearing on your placement in a preseason. Saying that, I know it is not technically true as short term runs of good or bad luck will definitely bear on final placement withing a preseason but if we look out to infinity, short term runs of good or bad luck even out. In other words, randomness, over a sufficient amount of PvP rounds, will not adversely affect you versus your competition.
You also mentioned being "robbed" of gems. This is only true if you equate gems spend = wins. I think of gems spend as equal to opportunities rather than wins.
Hopefully, after this much longer and time consuming post that I originally expected, you can see my point of view. I am not saying your point of view is wrong as it is not wrong, it is just different based on how we value the current PvP experience differently.
Your opening shade kills my MK. Then your shadowblade (not evading) dodges my shade. Then my shadowblade (not evading) dodges your shadowblade. I kill your Koros then your shadowblade (not evading) dodges my Koros. Then my shadowblade dodges 2 out of 3 shurikens from your shadowblade. Then my shadowblade kills yours with an epic attack to end it.
The whole **** match was one giant RNG fest. That is not fun. You can't predict it, plan around it, or deal with it as it happens. It's just coin flips until someone wins. And now we are going to introduce a fast rocky giving 85% dodge to everyone? Come on...
Mauling Ogres Lv70
A perfect example. SB is almost as frustrating as MK with his new epic weapon. He will often dodge multiple times in a row (Without dodge buff) and an epic attack will end the game.
The cutoff might be 25%, but if they ask for 100 rolls from 1-100 and it turns out a number less than 26 more than 50% of the time, you effectively have a RNG algorithm breaking your game. Just depends upon the algorithm used and the distribution it produces.
I actually had an entire post typed out about negative bias and deleted it because I really do think their internal game's pseudo internal rng calculator is completely broken. It explains why us long term players recognize "rng patterns" where we will get 10 material chests or 10 rune chests in a row. I'm not even sure they know that it's probably broken though, or maybe the guy that made it no longer works at the company and noone remains who actually knows how it works.
Of course all of this could be cognitive bias as well. The brain picks up on patterns and remembers them while being really poor at seeing overall data.
Is MK just significantly more skilled than all the other heroes, so that his 25% is greater than anyone else's 25%?
Please also keep in mind i have been doing very little pvp since preseason 1
Lots of superior runes will undo a lot of bad RNG. Our point is that in even type matches, it comes up way too often. For instance, I just lost a 12 win streak because @ObiWanCannoli 's Koros dodged shadowblade in a match that I had otherwise won. That isn't fun. There is nothing I can do about it. And now I lose out on potentially hundreds or thousands of extra trophies all because of some needless <5% event that has nothing to do with planning or skill, just blind luck. It adds nothing to the game except frustration.
THIS JUST IN
"Five Star Superior Legendary Runes are Broken"
(Even more so electric skin bauble combo)
MORE NEWS AT 5
Mauling Ogres Lv70
the introduction of runes was kinda laughable at first. they didn't seem that powerful. then we saw what was possible with greater and then superior runes, and when you combine the stats with native character modifiers, you ended up with some seriously ridiculous stats and associated potential.
the problem is that DB has effectively painted themselves into a corner with runes. it's their biggest cash cow, and their biggest balance problem.