PvP and RNG

MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
edited March 14 in My Dungeon Discussion
I mentioned this topic two summits ago, but I thought maybe some discussion on it could bring it further into the light for developers. I've been doing a lot of thinking on the current state of PvP. Mostly what it is about pvp that I enjoy and what it is that I dislike.

Enjoy:
1) Seeing new defenses and having to think through a solution making sure my team can handle as many poor outcomes as possible

2) Competing against the best so that the offense I bring matters and one small misplay means a loss. (ie I brought emily to a match earlier when I should have brought zen to take care of a Kai drenched debuff and it cost me the game. My mistake. My loss. Frustrating but it's entirely my fault.)

Do Not Enjoy (Read levels of rage so high they are not quantifiable on the under 9,000 scale)
1) Losing to things out of my control on a consistent and regular basis. These include defenses with shade/sb start where depending on who they attack can completely take out my offense before I have a chance to move. MK dodging/tenacity/epic procing and to a lesser extend SB doing the same thing now. MK critting all my heroes to death despite being diseased ect

2)Seeing the same small sub set of player defenses over and over ad nauseum

3) The overall feeling of gambling related to pvp as opposed to skill which I felt strong pre-runes.

4) Dodge as a stat overall. I think this needs a separate line as I'm specifically referring to dodge on runes. Losing to a defense because a key hero had 2% dodge feels TERRIBLE. (I lost to a koros dodge just earlier). You were robbed of thousands of trophies and hundreds of gems from your streak. A 2% dodge isn't anything you would ever play around (Unless you had a 100% win team that didn't care if they dodged of course which is rarely the case).

I believe pvp focusing on the first two points, while trying to negate the bottom four points would make for a significantly more positive pvp experience for everyone. A certain level of rng is healthy for the game, but I believe the game has tipped too far in the direction of random uncontrollable outcomes deciding games. Runes make this issue worse as the power level of runes means if a single hero that was suppose to die round 1 does not... your whole team is dead.

My suggestions (Throwing pasta at the wall here to see what sticks. I'm sure we can come up with a lot of great things)
1) Reduce RNG overall. Start by toning down MKs dodge and removing tenacity. (At this point I wouldn't care if you deleted him from the game). Have AI targetting be more consistent or reduce fast heroes one shot capabilities. (Barring other synergistic buffs ie: ember/Lupina/Shade into SB makes SB do more damage.)

2) Consider making epic procs only happen in PvE. I know this hasn't really been mentioned, but I think it's a pretty big deal. Nothing is more infuriating than losing to back to back 30% epic proc probabilities when they essentially always cause a one shot. You still get to keep the epic stat increase for pvp however.

3) Continue to fix matchmaking. I should NOT be seeing the same person back to back on refreshes (Last night I actually refreshed just to be given 2 of the 3 exact same people).

These are just my thoughts from doing 40+ matches a day since preseason 2. In the current form, my frustration at the system FAR outweighs my enjoyment. Losses due to uncontrollable RNG is at the core of that frustration. No, the answer is not "get all superior legendary 5 star runes so that you can overcome RNG altogether". That only further implicates how broken rune balance becomes at the superior legendary level.
«1

Comments

  • bvs72bvs72 Member
    @MattCauthron - if you are doing 40+ matches a day, the system is working just as they hoped.
  • bvs72 wrote: »
    @MattCauthron - if you are doing 40+ matches a day, the system is working just as they hoped.

    To be fair I did 40+ raids a day under the old system. I just enjoyed myself much more so while doing it. They also generally took much less time. I spend 5-10 minutes simply killing Emily far too often.
  • FoozleFoozle Member
    Agree. I also don't like the RNG aspect and other aspects which is why I've been opting out of PvP since the latest GG. I think I could live with some of the RNG and other aspects if the trophy requirement for Legend 1 wasn't so steep. Losing those win streaks to RNG really costs you when you need such a large number of trophies to get into the top league. I don't think things should be easy, but you shouldn't have to do 40+ matches a day to get in the top league -- top 100 perhaps, but not the top league. Just my opinion, of course.
  • RexobRexob Member
    edited March 14
    I use to play 25+ daily Raids in the old system and regularly purchased Ella's Honor. However, under the new system I barely have 100 Raids combined during PS4 & 5. I stopped buying anything until I actually see an improvement that is FUN.

    As someone who obtained VIP 10 in about 50 days solely bc I enjoyed the PvP this is a bit disappointing.

    MK is annoying, but the most infuriating thing for me is when a key Hero who lacks any natural Dodge has 1 Rune for it and manages to Dodge...GG
    IGN & Line: N00BST4R
    Mauling Ogres Lv70
  • Get all superior legendary 5 star runes, anyways.
  • Matt, I am right there beside you on the leaderboards and I agree. It is certainly challenging to face the RNG monster, crushing a hard, thought out streak. It's disheartening. I play less raids than I used to because now only streaks really gain you the ground you need to stay in the top 100 and once you lose one, it takes all the wind out of you and I usually stop for the day.

    The problem is you lose most of the battles due to something you cannot control, just as you said. It's part of the mechanics of the game at this point and these core issues need to be addressed or it will only become worse for those trying to rise up to compete in the next couple months. I want competition in PvP and this is crushing the future rockstars down before they have a chance to become someone I say, "Man, not this guy again, how can I beat this?"
  • RexobRexob Member
    @MattCauthron to your point about matchmaking, since opponesnts are pooled from recently active players I'm not that surprised by the example you described earlier. While there's no evidence, I think it's a fairly safe assumption that this PS has the lowest participation rate; ergo a very small pool of actives at any given time.
    IGN & Line: N00BST4R
    Mauling Ogres Lv70
  • Rexob wrote: »
    @MattCauthron to your point about matchmaking, since opponesnts are pooled from recently active players I'm not that surprised by the example you described earlier. While there's no evidence, I think it's a fairly safe assumption that this PS has the lowest participation rate; ergo a very small pool of actives at any given time.

    That's no longer true actually. They removed the "being active" part from matchmaking requirement. They actually try to make everyone have an equal amount of attacks before rotating everyone back into the pool. What that leads to of course is all the hardest defenses being left at certain times b/c everyone avoids them... still not an ideal system if you ask me. (I was refreshing late last night and only seeing the hardest defenses over and over that noone wanted to fight but since their total fights were lower they were the only ones showing up).
  • 2) Consider making epic procs only happen in PvE. I know this hasn't really been mentioned, but I think it's a pretty big deal. Nothing is more infuriating than losing to back to back 30% epic proc probabilities when they essentially always cause a one shot. You still get to keep the epic stat increase for pvp however.

    I have a couple of issues with with removing epics.
    1. Certain hero's are playable in PVP because of epics. If they couldn't use their epic I wouldn't be able to use them. For example I use Yasmin quite a bit to grind out victories against Emily, Bauble, and Furnace teams.
    2. Way to kill Emily or Astrid. I've had many battles where I could only damage Emily when an epic went off.

  • lythander wrote: »
    2) Consider making epic procs only happen in PvE. I know this hasn't really been mentioned, but I think it's a pretty big deal. Nothing is more infuriating than losing to back to back 30% epic proc probabilities when they essentially always cause a one shot. You still get to keep the epic stat increase for pvp however.

    I have a couple of issues with with removing epics.
    1. Certain hero's are playable in PVP because of epics. If they couldn't use their epic I wouldn't be able to use them. For example I use Yasmin quite a bit to grind out victories against Emily, Bauble, and Furnace teams.
    2. Way to kill Emily or Astrid. I've had many battles where I could only damage Emily when an epic went off.

    1) Props to you for using Yasmin! There are plenty of other available counters however
    2) This won't be an issue once they fix DR.

    I would argue those are also incredibly minor compared to the ability for epic procs to literally instantly make you lose games as they essentially one shot anyone. SB's is the worst yet by far.
  • lythander wrote: »
    2) Consider making epic procs only happen in PvE. I know this hasn't really been mentioned, but I think it's a pretty big deal. Nothing is more infuriating than losing to back to back 30% epic proc probabilities when they essentially always cause a one shot. You still get to keep the epic stat increase for pvp however.

    I have a couple of issues with with removing epics.
    1. Certain hero's are playable in PVP because of epics. If they couldn't use their epic I wouldn't be able to use them. For example I use Yasmin quite a bit to grind out victories against Emily, Bauble, and Furnace teams.
    2. Way to kill Emily or Astrid. I've had many battles where I could only damage Emily when an epic went off.

    I agree. Yasmin has been seeing some action in pvp, and I don't really use any of her abilities. I think that if Kira wasn't so annoying with tenacity and then firing off his epic all the time we wouldn't be thinking about epic attacks at all.
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited March 15
    Zombie8u wrote: »
    lythander wrote: »
    2) Consider making epic procs only happen in PvE. I know this hasn't really been mentioned, but I think it's a pretty big deal. Nothing is more infuriating than losing to back to back 30% epic proc probabilities when they essentially always cause a one shot. You still get to keep the epic stat increase for pvp however.

    I have a couple of issues with with removing epics.
    1. Certain hero's are playable in PVP because of epics. If they couldn't use their epic I wouldn't be able to use them. For example I use Yasmin quite a bit to grind out victories against Emily, Bauble, and Furnace teams.
    2. Way to kill Emily or Astrid. I've had many battles where I could only damage Emily when an epic went off.

    I agree. Yasmin has been seeing some action in pvp, and I don't really use any of her abilities. I think that if Kira wasn't so annoying with tenacity and then firing off his epic all the time we wouldn't be thinking about epic attacks at all.

    I think MK, SB, and Shade are all equal offenders of epic procs deciding games. Health simply isn't balanced around an attack doing 2 or 3x damage. It makes every auto attack read "30% chance to kill your target" in many cases. It's great fun in PvE but I really think it's makes for a much less competitive PvP environment. (Going back to RNG determining too many outcomes)

    This issue will only get worse once they "fix" DR.
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited March 15
    @rpger001 Great points and well thought out. I made another long post elsewhere describing the differences between good and bad randomness in the game. I agree that the game needs a certain level of randomness to stay engaging so you aren't going through the same rote fights playing out exactly the same. I just don't agree that certain instances of randomness (Mk tenacity being an excellent example) are healthy for the game. Games should not be decided by single dice rolls. This all comes down to the fact that damage in its current form is simply way to high. There is no way to react to random outcomes in the games current state. If you lose key dice rolls, you simply die on the spot. There is nothing engaging about that.
  • devthepdevthep Member
    To me, there are two primary issues at this point - completely weird RNG where people 10 levels beneath me and 3* vs my 6* can handily beat me and the fact that I have to wait 2-5 turns for my 2nd skill, but opposing heroes get to use theirs immediately. On the RNG side it's blatantly off on so many levels (I literally just had a 3k powered MK take down my entire team of Zen, Shade, Pont, and Astrid, with Astrid having 3k defense in addition to a ton of other battles that just felt completely off). It feels like horribly thought/calculated out mechanics (and quite possibly math given the RNG issues - I have zero issues with true RNG going way back to D&D days). I'm on my last week of giving this game a chance, and then I'm outtie. VIP 8.
  • @rpger001 Very well written post. I personally don't want these RNG quirks taken away (like 5% dodge). My only qualms with RNG decided battles is I would like more hero utility to increase my odds greater than they currently are. Dwarves are great in theory for their perfect swing, and I believe we'll start seeing a shift towards them soon (TM). The combinations might already exist, and we might just be complaining because we don't have the opportunity to freely test various rune set ups.
  • I might even be ok with MK if his dodge was really 25%. But there's no way in hell. It's gotta be approaching 50%.
  • @MattCauthron watch the replay of my raid on you a few minutes ago if you see this in time. Prime example of the idiocy of the current dodge mechanics.

    Your opening shade kills my MK. Then your shadowblade (not evading) dodges my shade. Then my shadowblade (not evading) dodges your shadowblade. I kill your Koros then your shadowblade (not evading) dodges my Koros. Then my shadowblade dodges 2 out of 3 shurikens from your shadowblade. Then my shadowblade kills yours with an epic attack to end it.

    The whole **** match was one giant RNG fest. That is not fun. You can't predict it, plan around it, or deal with it as it happens. It's just coin flips until someone wins. And now we are going to introduce a fast rocky giving 85% dodge to everyone? Come on...
  • RexobRexob Member
    All I can think of when I lose to Dodge is MC Hammer's Can't Touch This lol
    IGN & Line: N00BST4R
    Mauling Ogres Lv70
  • @MattCauthron watch the replay of my raid on you a few minutes ago if you see this in time. Prime example of the idiocy of the current dodge mechanics.

    Your opening shade kills my MK. Then your shadowblade (not evading) dodges my shade. Then my shadowblade (not evading) dodges your shadowblade. I kill your Koros then your shadowblade (not evading) dodges my Koros. Then my shadowblade dodges 2 out of 3 shurikens from your shadowblade. Then my shadowblade kills yours with an epic attack to end it.

    The whole **** match was one giant RNG fest. That is not fun. You can't predict it, plan around it, or deal with it as it happens. It's just coin flips until someone wins. And now we are going to introduce a fast rocky giving 85% dodge to everyone? Come on...

    A perfect example. SB is almost as frustrating as MK with his new epic weapon. He will often dodge multiple times in a row (Without dodge buff) and an epic attack will end the game.
  • The pseudo RNG algorithm could just be that bad.

    The cutoff might be 25%, but if they ask for 100 rolls from 1-100 and it turns out a number less than 26 more than 50% of the time, you effectively have a RNG algorithm breaking your game. Just depends upon the algorithm used and the distribution it produces.
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited March 16
    FatCat69 wrote: »
    The pseudo RNG algorithm could just be that bad.

    The cutoff might be 25%, but if they ask for 100 rolls from 1-100 and it turns out a number less than 26 more than 50% of the time, you effectively have a RNG algorithm breaking your game. Just depends upon the algorithm used and the distribution it produces.

    I actually had an entire post typed out about negative bias and deleted it because I really do think their internal game's pseudo internal rng calculator is completely broken. It explains why us long term players recognize "rng patterns" where we will get 10 material chests or 10 rune chests in a row. I'm not even sure they know that it's probably broken though, or maybe the guy that made it no longer works at the company and noone remains who actually knows how it works.

    Of course all of this could be cognitive bias as well. The brain picks up on patterns and remembers them while being really poor at seeing overall data.

  • @FatCat69 I've always been under the assumption that it's 25% that is used in a larger formula that likely involves the SKL of the attacking hero and SKL of the defending hero, making Dodge effectively higher than 25% when MK SKL outshines. It's all skill, no luck (RNG) ;)
  • Very possible. If the underlying formula calculating dodge was broken, it would also skew numbers higher for all heroes.

    Is MK just significantly more skilled than all the other heroes, so that his 25% is greater than anyone else's 25%?
  • DrocasDrocas Member
    I see you guys are saying that pvp is complete rng right now, however i look at the top 10 people on the leader board all together they have close to 800 wins with an average win rate of 95%. If it was all rng i would except their win rate to be a lot lower maybe 70-75%.

    Please also keep in mind i have been doing very little pvp since preseason 1
    The EMPIRE :: The Aegis of Athena
    KuK1uXt.png
  • Drocas wrote: »
    I see you guys are saying that pvp is complete rng right now, however i look at the top 10 people on the leader board all together they have close to 800 wins with an average win rate of 95%. If it was all rng i would except their win rate to be a lot lower maybe 70-75%.

    Please also keep in mind i have been doing very little pvp since preseason 1


    Lots of superior runes will undo a lot of bad RNG. Our point is that in even type matches, it comes up way too often. For instance, I just lost a 12 win streak because @ObiWanCannoli 's Koros dodged shadowblade in a match that I had otherwise won. That isn't fun. There is nothing I can do about it. And now I lose out on potentially hundreds or thousands of extra trophies all because of some needless <5% event that has nothing to do with planning or skill, just blind luck. It adds nothing to the game except frustration.
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited March 16
    Drocas wrote: »
    I see you guys are saying that pvp is complete rng right now, however i look at the top 10 people on the leader board all together they have close to 800 wins with an average win rate of 95%. If it was all rng i would except their win rate to be a lot lower maybe 70-75%.

    Please also keep in mind i have been doing very little pvp since preseason 1

    THIS JUST IN

    "Five Star Superior Legendary Runes are Broken"

    (Even more so electric skin bauble combo)

    MORE NEWS AT 5
  • RexobRexob Member
    edited March 16
    Dodge wouldn't be so bad if the few heroes who can counter it weren't borderline useless. I typically use Hagrim when an opponent's lineup allows it, and an obvious Dodge team; just don't have the evos for Valkin. That said - it's really rare to be able to use him - I've won the two matches where I could use him since the PS started...which means 2 wins of over 800 Raids.
    IGN & Line: N00BST4R
    Mauling Ogres Lv70
  • oredithoredith Member
    3) The overall feeling of gambling related to pvp as opposed to skill which I felt strong pre-runes.
    not to negate the rest of what you said, which are all valid - but I think this is the elephant in the room.

    the introduction of runes was kinda laughable at first. they didn't seem that powerful. then we saw what was possible with greater and then superior runes, and when you combine the stats with native character modifiers, you ended up with some seriously ridiculous stats and associated potential.

    the problem is that DB has effectively painted themselves into a corner with runes. it's their biggest cash cow, and their biggest balance problem.
    soon™ - it's the answer to everything
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.

© 2015 Big Fish Games. Inc., Big Fish, the Big Fish logo, and Dungeon Boss are
trademarks of Big Fish Games, Inc., used with permission www.bigfishgames.com