Hunnnh??!!

This post is NOT directed at any individual player, group of players, or Guild. It’s not intended to be controversial or troublesome, rather to simply state to the Developers how myself and many others that I’ve spoken to feel about current PVP Matchmaking practices that have been in place for the past 3 PVP seasons (and current 4th) which appear to be giving a rather tangible advantage to lower tier accounts. My hope is that we can unite behind a common interest as a Community while not allowing this conversation to go off the rails and devolve into what many other posts have in the past. With all that said, and with the greatest respect (and a touch of humor), @Eej this is for you to read and hopefully respond to …

Like all games, when we first downloaded DB and started out at level 1, it didn’t take long to realize that the intent of the game (other than to have fun) was to “level/gear-up” and to run content, to acquire rewards/materials that would ultimately be used for furthering that cause in the hopes that one day you’d achieve “greatness and glory” … Stamina, Gems, Portals, Epic Weapons, Tokens, Aether, Evos, Rune Crafting etc … literally EVERYTHING in the game was designed as a vehicle used for the purpose advancing your roster and “gearing up”. However, where did this road end, and what was the payoff that made it all worthwhile? What would the “End Game” be and would it make the long road to get there worthwhile? Most people that I know agree (some begrudgingly because they do indeed enjoy their PVE), that the answer is “PVP Seasons & The Boss Leaderboard” where players get to flex their muscle and match wits against their friends, peers, and fellow Guild members from around the globe.

So after 607 days of countless Dungeons, Boss Packs, Events, Guild Games etc … and hours upon hours of play time (and YES, a whole LOT of money spent), I found myself in the middle of the “Season of Grace” making a second attempt at trying to obtain arguably the most prestigious Achievement in the Game (Legendary Conqueror), and hoping that this would finally be my chance for “greatness and glory”. But when I opened the Leaderboard and looked in the rearview mirror … did I see @Dane ? Ummm nope. Rather I was being challenged/chased by a level 65 player who’s roster development wasn’t anywhere near mine (I mean like a Galaxy apart)! *queue the sound of a needle scratching a record* Hunnnh??? Seriously???

Let me be 100% clear on this point, it’s not that I mind a new player breaking into the Top 100 or kicking up their heels, in fact I salute them and probably would have done the exact same thing myself. No I don’t have a problem with The Player(s) … I have a problem with the “design and implementation of the system” that allows something as ridiculously unfair as this to happen … giving what appears to be a significant advantage to lesser geared/developed players by letting them earn identical trophy rewards for beating weaker/easier opponents than those that other fully developed/geared players face. Wow really??!! I wish someone would have sent me the memo several months ago and told me that I can have access to the game’s best runes, compete for (and win) the Legendary Conqueror title, and accomplish everything in the “End Game” that veteran geared-up level 70’s can by stopping the advancement of my roster/account right then and there at level 65; I could have saved myself a whole lot of time, effort, frustration, and money. New Squinch Epic released today? Let me jump right on THAT and spend money and resources … but shhhh, don’t tell anyone that Squinch may (or may not) be part of an undisclosed secret subset of heroes used to determine PVP Matchmaking. Level that shiny new Epic up! Buy the newly released Epic Pack in the Shop for $19.99! Craft a bunch of really expensive new Superior Runes (with a low success rate to go Legendary)! Seek glory and world domination … and oh btw, handicap yourself in PVP Matchmaking!! *queue Baby Groot sound effect and adorable facial expression … Hunnnh???*

This is Open World PVP and Dungeon Boss's "End Game" ... regardless of level, roster power, runes, secret subset of heroes, epic weapons, Nationality, race, gender, political preference etc ... if you even get a sniff of the Boss Leaderboard and Top 100 (where there's access to some of the game's most powerful & unique runes + the game's most prestigious Achievement), the competition that everyone faces MUST be equal period. No ifs, ands, or buts … the competition that everyone faces MUST be equal period.

This isn't 5th grade where everyone gets a medal for participation, a lollipop, and told how special they are. This is a competition where people have invested countless hours of time, effort, and real $$ (lots of it). If a newer/less geared player finds that they can't succeed against the same level of competition that the higher tier players have to face, then they can grab themselves a lolli, buy a Boss Pack, grind content, level up, and craft better runes like everyone else did before them. Giving an advantage to a lesser developed account is a slap in the face to veteran players by de-valuing their account and diminishing all that they’ve worked to achieve since Day 1.

Could you imagine an automobile race where the slower/newer drivers were given the pole position instead of the faster/veteran drivers? While additionally mandating that the fastest cars stay in the outside lane of the track for the entire race? There isn't a sport or event on the planet that would ever be run this way ... the fan base would revolt, nobody would watch … yet here WE are doing just that.

I can’t imagine that THIS wasn’t anticipated or discussed in the Dev’s design meetings; surely someone raised their hand and asked “won’t this make a lot of people angry”? Yet here we are in the 4th Season of watching this practice continue to take place … watching replays of lesser developed accounts facing level 60 opponents, watching others bring unleveled heroes to battle for an advantage (i.e. L22 Krexx … yeah we noticed that), and watching player fatigue/burnout with PVP reaching new highs as the competition increases for Top 100 rewards (since more players have easy access to it).

All we ask is that we have a level playing field to compete on, that no player has an easier path to earn rewards than any other, and that leveling/gearing up your roster is actually something that matters and gives you an advantage (not a disadvantage). I truly have a great deal of respect for the Development Team; I know they come to work each day and do their best to make this game better while responding to player feedback as quickly as they can. I’m emotionally passionate regarding this issue, but it’s because I love this game and like many, have invested a great deal in it. Thanks for your time and consideration regarding this matter … and of course, rolling with my quirky sense of humor :) Remember, we are all here for FUN after all!! Cheers
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Comments

  • I would 100% agree it appears something is off. The developers at this point have completely avoided/ignored all inquiries regarding this subject (Through multiple avenues). I'm not sure what that means to be honest.

    Until this is fixed, the only thing we can do is keep raising the point.

    @Eeej I try to my to tag you as rarely as possible. This is a pretty massive issue in my book however.
  • edited May 12
    Two great points being made here that need to be addressed very quickly.

    (1) Legendary Conquerer is the most prestigious title we have and it isn't fair to top tier players who have to face harder level 70 matchups, that risk their streak, to be outpaced by level 65s who are gaming the system by farming weak matchups which allow perfect streaks to go unchallenged. These two types of players should not be earning the same amount of trophies per win when there is such a huge disparity in challenge to be overcome in attaining a pvp victory.

    (2) Matchmaking needs fixing. If by acquiring more power i am just making my matchups harder that is not reasonable. Especially if the algorithm is targetting very specific heroes in my roster allowing me to manually make my matchups easier via deruning. Maybe I shouldn't have maxed Stonefist's epic today to avoid making my pvp matchups more difficult? It should never be a personal conundrum to decide whether attaining more power is the right move or not.

    Top 100 is the pinnacle of the pvp season, so once you reach this threshold all matchups should be against fellow top 100 participants. That is a large enough pool of players to have enough variety.
  • edited May 12
    I don't know how exactly matchmaking works,but for sure as my RP increase the matches become harder.
    Players which are in the top100 should face teams at the same level of difficulty.
    And I don't know how to avoid the risk of coming back to old system,when a top100 player used to find same players over and over again.
    Maybe could be introduced a cap to RP(e.g. all players which have more then 340k find same kind of defenses,and when someone join the top100 his RP has counted as 340k even if that's not his real RP)
  • Nice points everyone! During the last season that crypt dominated I noticed a lv 65 person in 2nd. Now frankly I don't have a problem that a level 65 person was in there my problem is that player was not having to do any battles against higher level people in fact all the matches I watched of his was against a average of lv 60 players. Of course a lv 65 with a maxed out roster is going to dominate lv 60 players while us lv 70s get stuck fighting the hardest battles we could possibly get. I actually enjoy the challenge now but what I don't get is why this lv 65 person is not fighting people that are just as hard as we do? Something needs to be done. If your gonna compete in the top 100 you should have to face the same people we do! I actually respect the pvp player I am referring to but I don't like that he was able to fight such easy fights and content for the top 100 that way
  • danep4 wrote: »
    Nice points everyone! During the last season that crypt dominated I noticed a lv 65 person in 2nd. Now frankly I don't have a problem that a level 65 person was in there my problem is that player was not having to do any battles against higher level people in fact all the matches I watched of his was against a average of lv 60 players. Of course a lv 65 with a maxed out roster is going to dominate lv 60 players while us lv 70s get stuck fighting the hardest battles we could possibly get. I actually enjoy the challenge now but what I don't get is why this lv 65 person is not fighting people that are just as hard as we do? Something needs to be done. If your gonna compete in the top 100 you should have to face the same people we do! I actually respect the pvp player I am referring to but I don't like that he was able to fight such easy fights and content for the top 100 that way

    I think it's universal @Dane . There isn't a person that I've run across that disagrees (but I'm sure there will be some that do). The argument would be that the lower level players are facing opponents who are equivalently equal in difficulty based upon their level & RP theoretically making the challenge "equal" and the competition fair. However I go back to my original statement when I said that this is "open world" PVP for prestige and some of the best loot in the game. This is "may the best man/woman win". Basing Matchmaking on Roster Power (on any subset) just doesn't work ... the ONLY thing that's really fair is that Matchmaking is based upon your position on the Leaderboard and take RP out of the equation.

    A few people in the guild have tossed around the idea of having your matches determined by rank (only drawing from a pool of say players that are ranked +50 above your position, and -50 below your position). So for example if you're ranked number 200, you'd pull from a pool ranging from 150/250 ... if you're ranked number 25, you'd pull from a pool of 1/100 (the 25 above and the 75 below). To avoid the way that it was many Seasons ago (where the same person would show up 5 times an hour), a cooldown timer could be added. Since someone moving quickly can do say 30 matches per hour, make the timer say 2 hours. This would lessen repetition & farming someone while promoting facing the majority of the 100 people nearest to you in ranking that Season.

    Personally I've never been a fan of EMH and preferred the old way ... if that Matchmaking could somehow be logically corrected (without using players RP or Level as part of the equation), I think we'd be on a better path. All I know is that what's happening now, is extremely unfair and demotivating as it devalues all that people have accomplished in building up their accounts.

    One last thing I'd like to re-mention from my original post ... that being the subject of bringing unleveled heroes to battle. If the Boss Leaderboard is restricted to level 65 and above, then I propose that there's a "hero check" at the door when entering a match. If the player has to be level 65, the so must ALL heroes brought to a match. i.e. No more level twenty-something Krexx's and Kobal's that die when someone sneezes. Again, don't hate the player ... hate the programming that allows this to happen. Cheers
  • Even though I'm not affected but there's strength in numbers.

    I've been pointlessly nagging about matchmaking being about current trophy count (period) every chance I get.

    Shouldn't players competing for the best prizes fight players who are also competing for the best prizes. Mind blowing concept.

    What I don't get... why isn't there an unofficial/official response on current matchmaking. Since this isn't getting changed... there should be a reason why this current pvp system is being kept.




    One day.

  • @CryptKeeper I like EMH because a lot of our lower level guilds had tons of people miserable with pvp. Now they are having fun. But, I do think top 100 should be a different beastie than the rest of pvp.
    nunya
  • Once you hit top 100 and become eligible for top 100 prizes you shouldn't just be coasting. This is the highest echelon of competition and should be treated as such!

    I agree, let us not go backwards where the top twenty were just incestuously fighting each other. It was good in theory but us top players just needed a wider net cast.
  • edited May 12
    I would argue that there's two different problems here and we shouldn't blend them:
    1. We're not happy with matchmaking. Basing it on pure rank was bad. Basing it on this weird RP subset is better but still not great. Perhaps a combination?
    2. Regardless of the matchmaking logic, everyone competing for the top 100 should be fighting from the same pool. There should not be a handicap for this particular competition, the playing field should be level. Players that are not far enough along their progression to compete at the highest level should not be given a handicap allowing them to do so, they must progress until they can.

    As I stated in my prior post, I believe the cause of #2 is the entrance criteria for the top 100 competition is based on level and matchmaking is based on something else. Ability to compete in the top 100 competition should be based on whether you qualify for the highest matchmaking pool against the hardest players. It should not have a separate criteria completely unrelated to how matchmaking is determined

    And if you somehow have managed to amass enough epics, runes and RP to be placed into the highest matchmaking pool at level 65 then (and only then) you can compete for top 100. As long as you're facing the same people as the rest of us that's fine.
    centralcommand
  • It's really encouraging to see a united front regarding the issues ... now we just need some type of acknowledgement from the development team, and a solution. I know there are a lot of really terrific people involved in the weekly Summit and Focus Groups ... hopefully all of those peeps can come up with a proper solution and get this back on the right path. If they don't, I'm fearful it could have a grave effect on future player participation in the game itself.

    @nunya I totally hear you about EMH making PVP fun for a lot of players in the game ... I support that thought totally and have always felt that this game needs to be inclusive for everyone. As I said in my very first post on the forums ... whether you're a whale or minnow, we need an ocean where we can all play and have fun together :)
  • I think maybe to many assumptions are being made off watching a few random PvP matches

    I can only speak for myself, but being level 65 with a decent hero roster (I have 250k HP, or so) I get constantly matched against top 100 players in both offense and defense. So in my case I don't feel like it's any easier than level 70 people, in fact probably harder when you count the level differences.

    All that being said, with the current matchup system anyone can 'sandbag' their roster and make PvP easier for themselves, and im sure many are doing it.
    SNARF!
  • Just an FYI, we are indeed looking into this issue and understand where people are coming from with their feedback. :)
    Joel | Community Manager | Boss Fight Entertainment
    www.bossfightentertainment.com
  • edited May 12
    Lol...If top 100 was really just the absolute best top 100 pvp players fighting each other, then just get rid of pvp entirely. If pvp was really made significantly harder because you guys don't want level 65s in top 100, then that would handicap pretty much 99.99% of the entire game from having any incentive to do pvp past Legends 1 (it only takes an hour or so to reach L1 if you're on a streak).

    Figuring out a solution to combat this current system would be tricky but making top 100 fight exclusively each other would exclude 99.99% of the game from playing the game past the first day or two of the season.

    Also, what if I just wanted to continue doing pvp past L1, would I be forced to eventually participate in boss 100 once I reach the top 100 threshold? Many flaws in the suggestions.
  • edited May 12
    I'd also greatly appreciate it if L1 reward rune isn't exactly the same as L3 reward. If people wanted better prizes, they should earn it. This ain't no elementary soccer game where every person capable of downloading the game deserves a legendary greater champion rune for participating.

    My suggestion would be to make each tier within its bracket determinant of the stars on each rune: L3 (legendary with 3 stars), L2 (- with 4 stars), L1 (-5 stars). Apply that same principle to every bracket and that would start to look fair.

    Also it's way too easy to get into L1 with the current trophy distribution. I shouldn't be able to go from W1 to L1 within an hour from a single streak. This makes me feel like people are being given greater legendary runes for simply participating and getting their feet wet.
  • Agreed re: L1 vs L3 rune. But the same could be said about any other level. I don't think L2 used to provide any improvement over the L3 previously (both would be +5%, while L1 was +10%). Why is it hard to grasp the idea that the rune should improve with each step you make up the ladder to L1 (the L2 could have been +7%, for example).

    Regarding the Top 100 and difficulty of their matchups, I think you could almost argue that your upward mobility might be good until you reach Legend 1, once you're at the top tier, there's no longer any reason to keep feeding people easy opponents. I mean, there's no reason to keep grinding unless you're pursuing the top 100, right? Why not go to all hard choices, or at the very least M/H/H once you hit Legend 1?
    9gJSaHl.gif
  • FatCat69 wrote: »
    Agreed re: L1 vs L3 rune. But the same could be said about any other level. I don't think L2 used to provide any improvement over the L3 previously (both would be +5%, while L1 was +10%). Why is it hard to grasp the idea that the rune should improve with each step you make up the ladder to L1 (the L2 could have been +7%, for example).

    Regarding the Top 100 and difficulty of their matchups, I think you could almost argue that your upward mobility might be good until you reach Legend 1, once you're at the top tier, there's no longer any reason to keep feeding people easy opponents. I mean, there's no reason to keep grinding unless you're pursuing the top 100, right? Why not go to all hard choices, or at the very least M/H/H once you hit Legend 1?

    I would think if there was ever a pvp type quest that required the use of certain heroes (Similar to the ones we have been seeing) many people who are in the top 100 would appreciate those easy options specifically for quest completion.
  • @Matsuda241 You're missing the point.. it's certainly NOT about lower levels just being in Boss 100. (Are we clear?) Okay.

    It's about lower levels being matched against a different set of opponents than level 70s that have to be matched to competitive 70s.



    Keep the E/M/H. Anyone grinding Boss 100 and picking "E"s to get there has way too many gems to burn anyway.. If the system wants to stick a lvl 65 or 3000 RP opponent in E/M.. then that'd make more sense but not as a "Hard" opponent..

    I'm at a 6 streak and already I'm facing average 5000 RP players consistently. I expect that for every player in Legend 1+

    Again, replays of Mr. 65 in Boss 100 COULD be them going against an "E" opponent which would make sense and, to me, be acceptable. But what I wouldn't find acceptable is that same replay was their "Hard" opponent, giving 400 trophies a pop... I think that's the point.



    If the matchmaking IS about matching total roster power.. that's just silly.


  • Snarfalot wrote: »
    I think maybe to many assumptions are being made off watching a few random PvP matches

    I can only speak for myself, but being level 65 with a decent hero roster (I have 250k HP, or so) I get constantly matched against top 100 players in both offense and defense. So in my case I don't feel like it's any easier than level 70 people, in fact probably harder when you count the level differences.

    All that being said, with the current matchup system anyone can 'sandbag' their roster and make PvP easier for themselves, and im sure many are doing it.

    Not to seem argumentative or to dispute your own experiences, but I'd like to offer a little data (beyond just watching match replays) that one of my more mathematically minded guildmates collected which I believe will help illustrate why we believe that there's an issue that needs to be addressed:

    Anyone who's a regular visitor to the Boss Leaderboard knows Flexnes (Viking Berserker) who's both an innovative and excellent PVP'r. After tracking his success closely, he's routinely had the game’s best “average trophies earned per raid” and “average trophies earned per gem spent”. When comparing that data against other player's performance, we're unaware of anyone in Underworld or Level Capped who's been able to outperform Flexnes over the course of a Season ... as such, if anyone IS able to do so, it's a rather noteworthy feat and certainly newsworthy.

    Recently though, two lesser developed players (who will remain nameless) did just that. While not yet level 70 and with roster powers in the 200's, they were not only able to beat Flexnes in the previously mentioned statistics, but do so WITH EASE. The only logical explanation is that they're essentially playing a different game than everyone else against weaker opponents due to their level and a low "subset roster power" ... able to keep streaks alive longer while winning at a higher percentage than their competition. We've seen winning percentages over 99% which far outpaces the average Top 100 player and even bests the top players in the game.

    Hope that helps clarify things a bit further :) Cheers

  • One last thing I'd like to re-mention from my original post ... that being the subject of bringing unleveled heroes to battle. If the Boss Leaderboard is restricted to level 65 and above, then I propose that there's a "hero check" at the door when entering a match. If the player has to be level 65, the so must ALL heroes brought to a match. i.e. No more level twenty-something Krexx's and Kobal's that die when someone sneezes. Again, don't hate the player ... hate the programming that allows this to happen. Cheers

    Disagree with this part. Building your roster for PVP requires strategy. Keeping Krexx low level is just a better variation of not putting defensive runes on Krexx. I don’t see any reason to force players to modify heroes in specific ways just to make them easier for their opponents.
  • Maybe you guys should do the work for the devs. Learn programming and just fix everything yourself. Demand source code and make your own modifications and release them on whatever the name of that service is where you get live updates for source code. In the days of Diablo II bots, this is what people did. Mass modify source code for the bot and as changes were made updates would be applied automatically. Since the devs are "ignoring" everyone on the forum even though I see them making posts, why don't you guys stop with the complaints and make the game great again, or quit ^.^ No hostility here as you can see by the emoji, just making a suggestion. Imo the forums need cleaned up before the game does but people are going to be people I guess, but most people suck so expect the devs to give you the quality of treatment you give them.
  • well I'm glad I'm a lvl 66 with a 300k roster power, else I would feel on trial here :smiley:
    Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”
  • I think this has been a very respectful thread of which there was a Blue reply. Can't ask for anything more; it's how the forums are intended to work :) Cheers
  • edited May 13
    well I'm glad I'm a lvl 66 with a 300k roster power, else I would feel on trial here :smiley:

    Naaaah lol. Nothing but respect for players of all levels. We're all one big Community here to have fun and play a game together ... providing a fair and level playing field for everyone is something that benefits not only individuals, but the game's overall health. This thread was never about picking on Players (regardless of level) ... hopefully you didn't take it that way :)
  • edited May 13
    well I'm glad I'm a lvl 66 with a 300k roster power, else I would feel on trial here :smiley:

    Naaaah lol. Nothing but respect for players of all levels. We're all one big Community here to have fun and play a game together ... providing a fair and level playing field for everyone is something that benefits not only individuals, but the game's overall health. This thread was never about picking on Players (regardless of level) ... hopefully you didn't take it that way :)

    Ofcourse not, hell, I'll do my best to stay top 10, as a lvl 66 now or when I'm lvl 70. I'll try to be kicking heinies all the way. :wink:
    Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”
  • @TheBigLebrowski Awesome! That's the spirit :naughty:
  • I think this has been a very respectful thread of which there was a Blue reply. Can't ask for anything more; it's how the forums are intended to work :) Cheers


    That would have worked so much better if your emoji had been a drunk emoji.
    Just sayin
  • @TheBigLebrowski Awesome! That's the spirit :naughty:

    If you drink enough spirit that happens. But although nothing is taken personal I am afraid my Placebo account is one of the 65's mentioned. And some of the things that are spoken of are in my case not true. I try to keep my roster on par, just lack the potions atm.

    That's why I felt triggered to react. I'll just get to 70 soon enough so I'll stand out less. :smiley:
    Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”
  • I totally agree with your point about fair competition, but I think the issue with matchmaking extends to those of us way below the top 100.

    I'm a bit directionless in the game right now. If I acquire hero stars, epic levels, or good runes for heroes I don't use in PVP, my reward is likely harder PVP matches, so I'm intentionally not progressing many heroes right now.

    What I'd like to see is keep their roster power calc, but only use it to set whether you are an e/m/h choice for others of your player level bracket.

    It might be difficult to beat 'hard' opponents when you first enter the top level bracket (maybe 65-70), but it should get gradually easier as you roster improves, thus rewarding, rather than punishing progress.
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