help us keep the faith

with the recent string of botched content and bugs, I thought it appropriate to point out something that has been missing in the communication from the devs, which is generally considered a critical component of adequately addressing clients' concerns in a service industry.

when something goes wrong, be it big or small, and my client is upset, 2 things are expected of me:

1. for me to acknowledge the failure(s), identify why it happened, and the extent of the impact of the failure; this could be monetary, time (which also translates to money), resources, etc.
2. for me to formulate a plan forward that states my intended changes in procedure to ensure my client that a similar problem will not occur again.

what we have received from @Eej , is a great amount of heart-felt and blunt acceptance of errors made in decision. however, we have not received much in ways of the other critical component, letting us know what changes are going to be made to ensure that the same problem does not keep reoccuring.

case in point. we've had the problem of changing the rules of pvp late in a season before, and there was a huge outcry over it. yet here we are again, with the exact same problem.

saying you're sorry is well and good, and appreciated, but what would be infinitely more meaningful, is if you guys told us how you're going to ensure that it doesn't happen again.
soon™ - it's the answer to everything
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Comments

  • nunyanunya Member
    @oredith very well stated. Thank you. :)
    nunya
  • BrazyBrazy Member
    edited June 28
    oredith wrote: »

    saying you're sorry is well and good, and appreciated, but what would be infinitely more meaningful, is if you guys told us how you're going to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

    Even if he did come out and say it will never happen again, would you believe him?
  • oredithoredith Member
    Brazy wrote: »
    If he said this, would you believe him?
    depends.

    here's literally what I had to tell my client at the school district last week:
    Mr. _____, it was inexcusable that we missed the internal deadline on 6/19/2017. there were many factors that contributed to this. Primary among them, was the expanded scope of service that were identified during our design process which required additional coordination between my consultants and I. I should have recognized need for additional time earlier on, and approached you with the news and the impact so that the change can be accounted for. Moving forward, I can assure you that anything that can potentially impact the delivery schedule will be immediately brought to your attention for your feedback. thank you.

    I am pretty sure he believed me.

    however, if i told him "Mr. _____, sorry we missed the deadline, i promise it won't happen again", he probably would not believe me.
    soon™ - it's the answer to everything
  • BrazyBrazy Member
    I'm just tired of the excuses and explanations. Goes in one ear and out the other these days.
  • oredith wrote: »
    Brazy wrote: »
    If he said this, would you believe him?
    depends.

    here's literally what I had to tell my client at the school district last week:
    Mr. _____, it was inexcusable that we missed the internal deadline on 6/19/2017. there were many factors that contributed to this. Primary among them, was the expanded scope of service that were identified during our design process which required additional coordination between my consultants and I. I should have recognized need for additional time earlier on, and approached you with the news and the impact so that the change can be accounted for. Moving forward, I can assure you that anything that can potentially impact the delivery schedule will be immediately brought to your attention for your feedback. thank you.

    I am pretty sure he believed me.

    however, if i told him "Mr. _____, sorry we missed the deadline, i promise it won't happen again", he probably would not believe me.

    When was the last time Eej or Joel gave us an actual apology? Most of the repsonses I've seen from them have been "it was our mistake" (not an apology), "we failed to meet our/your expectation" (not an apology), "we understand you are disappointed" (not an apology), "there was a miscommunication with our development team" (not an apology).
  • oredithoredith Member
    shiggity80 wrote: »
    When was the last time Eej or Joel gave us an actual apology? Most of the repsonses I've seen from them have been "it was our mistake" (not an apology), "we failed to meet our/your expectation" (not an apology), "we understand you are disappointed" (not an apology), "there was a miscommunication with our development team" (not an apology).
    well, i think that's a bit nit-picky. if you're looking for the exact words "we're sorry", Eej and Joel probably would not be terribly shy about using those exact words. I don't think they've tried to pretend that they didn't screw up.

    the impression i get from the summit and limited communication here is that they really are sorry that the events transpired the way they have.

    the fact remains, however, that unless there's stated change, then all we can expect is more of the same, no matter how sorry you are. That's like an abusive alcoholic father apologizing for beating up the family after he sobers up, but not making changes to stop drinking.
    soon™ - it's the answer to everything
  • Rolla8Rolla8 Member
    Keep your apologies, I couldn't care less. Just compensate players fairly for your mistakes.

    Too many times have we had to endure these update blunders which cause us, time, resources, and REAL MONEY without any in game compensation. You would have a community of players who are much more understanding and willing to endure your mistakes, if you were to take care of them accordingly with some form of in game compensation.

    Instead, what we have seen lately is the following pattern:

    1. Update bug causes in game issues that require some form of compensation.
    2. Devs issue message apologizing for the mistake, a fix is in the works, compensation to come.
    3. Fix is issued, and problem fixed.
    4. Next bug/issue arises, before compensation for previous problem has been issued.
    5. Previous bug compensation is swept under the rug without ever being issued to players.
    6. Repeat step 1.
    Rolla8
  • JoelJoel Member, Administrator, Moderator, Boss Fight
    First off: I apologize, and I apologize that I failed to clearly apologize earlier. I'll be mindful of that going forward.

    With regards to future plans, I can assure you we are constantly working to improve internal coordination and efficiency, even when we aren't fresh off of a blunder. I can't give you a full readout of our internal team structure and workflow, but actions speak louder than words anyways, so I'll point you to some of the actions we've taken over the past several months: We used to not have guild summits, we now do. We used to not have any focus groups, we're about to go from one (Meta Focus Group) to two (Content Focus Group). At this point last year, we had *far* more event bugs than we do now. We still have bugs, but the rate has gone down significantly. In terms of event development, with the (admittedly significant) exception of the recent Guild Games, the past few month's events have gotten some of the most positive commentary I can remember, and we're forming the previously mentioned Content Focus Group to improve that even further. Our reaction time has decreased dramatically as well. Yesterday's matchmaking mishap was unfortunate and ideally shouldn't have happened in the first place, but we had it fixed in under 18 hours, most of which were not during business hours.

    I won't claim that we're perfect, and we've hit a small rough patch, but I hope you can recognize the strides we've been making and use that as an indication of our commitment to improvement.
    Joel | Community Manager | Boss Fight Entertainment
    www.bossfightentertainment.com
  • Rolla8Rolla8 Member
    Joel wrote: »
    First off: I apologize, and I apologize that I failed to clearly apologize earlier. I'll be mindful of that going forward.

    With regards to future plans, I can assure you we are constantly working to improve internal coordination and efficiency, even when we aren't fresh off of a blunder. I can't give you a full readout of our internal team structure and workflow, but actions speak louder than words anyways, so I'll point you to some of the actions we've taken over the past several months: We used to not have guild summits, we now do. We used to not have any focus groups, we're about to go from one (Meta Focus Group) to two (Content Focus Group). At this point last year, we had *far* more event bugs than we do now. We still have bugs, but the rate has gone down significantly. In terms of event development, with the (admittedly significant) exception of the recent Guild Games, the past few month's events have gotten some of the most positive commentary I can remember, and we're forming the previously mentioned Content Focus Group to improve that even further. Our reaction time has decreased dramatically as well. Yesterday's matchmaking mishap was unfortunate and ideally shouldn't have happened in the first place, but we had it fixed in under 18 hours, most of which were not during business hours.

    I won't claim that we're perfect, and we've hit a small rough patch, but I hope you can recognize the strides we've been making and use that as an indication of our commitment to improvement.

    *Inside Dungeon Boss Headquarters*

    DB message relaying minion: Sir, the players have spoken, they said that they are tired of hearing apologies for our mistakes. They don't want apologies, they want compensation.

    Guy making all of the terrible DB decisions: Hmmm I see... JOEL!! Get out to the forums ASAP and apologize for our latest mistake.
    Rolla8
  • nunyanunya Member
    @Joel I agree with @oredith, it's not a lack of apologizing. Y'all have been very good at owning up to your issues. Just, please, if you want to make a change not at the end of a season. Also, could you please implement major changes in the morning? Just because, you can't hear us howling that night doesn't mean we aren't going to whine all the more the next day. :)
    nunya
  • Skip_HolmesSkip_Holmes Member
    edited June 28
    On the upside, top 100 might be doable with like 45k this week given that no one will be trying. I don't think you could possibly design a less useful rune if you tried. If the 5 star legendary superior version (top 100) of this thing dropped in a mid-dungeon chest on boss island, I'd probably chuckle and share a screenshot with the guild for laughs, and then scrap it for shards.
  • oredithoredith Member
    i wonder if the pvp rune stats are generated by a RNG.

    soon™ - it's the answer to everything
  • Please do not apologize. Your plan was brilliant. PVP numbers were down which means revenue was down. The glitch skyrocketed PVP battles which increased revenue. Well played Boss Fight. I will now stick to legend 1 at 40k.
  • danacdanac Member
    Joel wrote: »
    First off: I apologize, and I apologize that I failed to clearly apologize earlier. I'll be mindful of that going forward.

    I'm sorry your think your apologies haven't been apologetic enough.
  • shiggity80 wrote: »
    When was the last time Eej or Joel gave us an actual apology? Most of the repsonses I've seen from them have been "it was our mistake" (not an apology), "we failed to meet our/your expectation" (not an apology), "we understand you are disappointed" (not an apology), "there was a miscommunication with our development team" (not an apology).

    If you read Eej's comments in the last summit notes, it's pretty heart felt and taking on personal ownership, so kudos for that.

    I know nothing about programming but it does seem that there is no sandbox environment? ie all the changes are rolled out in production without a test environment.

    ---
    Wasi | The Potato Army
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    I'm just sort of curious about what really goes on behind the scenes. None of us really know, not even us gurus. If I were head of a game development team, I would straighten all problems out after the first couple of back-fires. I don't think it's incompetence. The general backlash on the forums is almost always the same every time - they're just tossing out events and heroes and epics without testing, and it's making people upset. This process of releasing stuff and finding bugs, and people getting mad on the forums, has been going on for over a year now. I highly doubt any game company worth their stuff would keep releasing buggy content on purpose time after time after time. I don't think they mean to do any wrong, and by that I also mean I think they're trying, too. It bothers me how quick people are to judge and attack the devs despite not knowing how making a game without bugs works, or how hard that is, or even admitting they don't know anything yet not caring and continuing to attack. Don't get me wrong, pointing out bugs is fine, necessary even, but we don't have to attack Dungeon Boss. The forums being a rude and hostile place isn't going to help the devs fix things any faster, as much as people want to believe that it will, like this is some sort of French Revolution or something. Anyone who pays any attention knows that the most in-depth, meaningful replies from the devs come from people asking nicely and formally.

    And to address the other elephant in the room; greed. I'm fine with people complaining about prices. But people also need to understand a couple things about games, especially iOS games: The whole point is for a group of developers and employees to make money. Sure, the game has to be fun and entertaining, but really only so you keep paying. That isn't to say the developers are heartless, soulless robots who don't have any creative experience and actually care about making their game look good and bringing their dreams to life - Because practically every game development team is like that. Except EA. Those people are robots and it's highly reflected in how un-fun their games are. But I'm getting off track. To some degree, a video game is the culmination of one or more people's visions, wanting to make a fantasy a reality. They don't have to appeal to everyone because they're the developers' dreams. That being said, they've got to make money somehow. Hence micro-transactions and all that good stuff. But you know that. What I don't think everyone knows, however, is that most game companies have financial experts who monitor who spends how much and on what, and balance prices depending on what the bundles give, and constantly check feedback to adjust prices. Everyone seems to believe whales tip the scales by a huge amount and that's why everything is so expensive - but that's frankly not true. For all the players who play Dungeon Boss, maybe 1% of them are whales (yeah yeah, make your 1% jokes already). Even if they're spending hundreds - even thousands more on bundles than the regular player, they're not affecting prices in a significant manner. After all, the prices should be fair for everyone, so that everyone will buy them. If the prices were so high that 99% of players couldn't afford them, they'd actually lose money. Whales spend a lot, that's true, but when you have thousands of casual players spending $5-$25 a week each, it adds up. Whales exist but don't affect the balance of things as much as people think they do. Now, about them being greedy, I honestly don't think so. First off, the game is free. You can play through the whole campaign and never pay a cent. You can be a casual player, have tons of fun, and leave without losing a dime. One thing people should try and think about is how much it not only costs to keep an app featured on the App Store, but how much it costs to keep the servers running, keep employees paid, heck, even keeping electricity and basic living conditions in check at all the Dungeon Boss offices. Tons of little expenses people don't consider. They have to pay for all of that, keep the game free-to-play, and still make a profit. Of course they're going to appear greedy to some players. But, and I could be wrong, I doubt they're rolling in dough. I've seen tons of game titles and companies rise and fall, everyone who studies this sort of stuff can tell if a game company really is being greedy or not. And to me, it seems, they're not as greedy as people paint them as - in fact I don't think they're greedy at all. They just made Rune Grab Bags cheaper, gave players other options for buying runes, have been making improvements to resource collection in-game (the huge gold/xp/evo island update way back, PWNage shop upgrades, honor shop upgrades, etc), they've given us awesome events to get tons of tokens for heroes you'd otherwise have to farm a lot or pay a lot to get stars for, and have addressed and fixed tons of bugs. Actual greedy game companies don't do this stuff. A good example would be Skyrim and Bethesda. New stuff at E3? Nope. Same old Skyrim stuff they've been doing for years - except now modders have to fork up money to Bethesda to keep their mods approved. No special events, ever. No bug fixes (Lord knows Bethesda's been known for that long before Skyrim), ever. Just re-packaged garbage and asking players to still cough up money. If you compare Boss Fight to Bethesda and still think Boss Fight is greedy, I think you should reconsider. Dungeon Boss is an amazing game, Boss Fight is an amazing group of imaginative people, and I honestly believe they want their game to be fun and interesting despite profit being something they have to keep up, and I think you should too.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Bovus
    Favorite element: Nature
    Currently: Trying to max out Epics
  • danacdanac Member
    I'm just sort of curious about what really goes on behind the scenes. None of us really know, not even us gurus. If I were head of a game development team, I would straighten all problems out after the first couple of back-fires. I don't think it's incompetence.

    Maybe they'll straighten it all out when they release version 1.0
    The forums being a rude and hostile place isn't going to help the devs fix things any faster, as much as people want to believe that it will, like this is some sort of French Revolution or something.

    No one expects the French Revolution.



  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    danac wrote: »
    I'm just sort of curious about what really goes on behind the scenes. None of us really know, not even us gurus. If I were head of a game development team, I would straighten all problems out after the first couple of back-fires. I don't think it's incompetence.

    Maybe they'll straighten it all out when they release version 1.0
    The forums being a rude and hostile place isn't going to help the devs fix things any faster, as much as people want to believe that it will, like this is some sort of French Revolution or something.

    No one expects the French Revolution.



    Do you take anything without a side of salt?
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Bovus
    Favorite element: Nature
    Currently: Trying to max out Epics
  • oredithoredith Member
    edited June 29
    @Joel , circling back to what i posted yesterday, i really am appreciative of your response, however, I want to point out that you are still not providing the answer that (I think) a lot of us are looking for.

    I will simply speak for myself as I do not want to make assumptions of what anyone else wishes for.

    To put plainly, I would like to hear from someone on the dev team, what you are changing to ensure that repeat problems do not occur in the future.

    <edit>I know that in your response, you indicated that you guys are always trying to improve internal coordination and efficiency, but that is an incredibly broad statement. it could be applied to how you guys are planning time slots for bathroom and toilet paper usage to ensure less waste, to working on the combat revamp; we need something that speaks directly to the issue of reoccurring mistakes, for us to keep the faith that you will not continue to make the same mistakes</edit>

    I understand that there's a degree of detail that you are not able to share with us, but that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a broader description of the approach. something like "we are now adding additional time before any release to ensure that the release timing, content, delivery, etc will not recreate errors that have already been resolved in the past".

    the problem with telling me what accomplishments have been achieved, while 100% valid and true, is that it doesn't actually speak to the issue.

    Imagine @Eej coming to the development team and asked "is the combat revamp done yet?", and the dev team responds with "we don't know about the combat revamp, but we're making great strides in character sorting". Making progress in some aspect of the game, does not absolve the responsibility in other aspects.
    Post edited by oredith on
    soon™ - it's the answer to everything
  • danacdanac Member



    Do you take anything without a side of salt?

    I suppose I could have been serious and said,
    Their vexing version number alone suggests that the game came out rushed and ill formed. Many other games also have socalled 'soft launches' but still release version 1.0 and up.
    I could have pointed out your supposition that that you said you don't think they're incompetent *and* you don't think they're trying to screw things up, which are at this point the only two likely options. The third option being that they're being deliberately rushed by Big Fish to put out a product before it can be vetted.

    Then I could have pointed out that this is the *internet*. People complaining harshly on the internet is practically inherent. Or I could have said that criticism has increased steadily over a year because the miscues from the company have increased steadily.


    I could have said that. Instead I went with salt.*



    *Because I thought the pun off of History of the World was funny.
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