Dungeon Boss and It's Biggest Problem Ever - An Autopsy

JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
Let's face it. One of Dungeon Boss' biggest problem is PvP and hero balancing. And it seems that their biggest fear is fixing it! But why?

You know, part of what makes games interesting is having a constantly changing meta-game. Take any MOBA for example. Heroes of the Storm, DOTA, League of Legends... No one hero stays overpowered forever. Usually, newer heroes are strong, but only because people have never fought them before and don't know what to do. Then, as people learn to counter them, they get weaker. Older heroes/champions get reworked to stay relevant.

It's this cycle that ensures there's always good and bad heroes (although usually no one hero is TOO good or TOO bad), and every month or so, that changes. It keeps things fresh. Imagine if, in League of Legends, every Jungler who wanted to do good just picked Yi every time and- Okay, wait, bad example. Nevermind.

Of course, BossFight (more likely than not) does not have the resources, or - apparently, dedication - to continuously buff and nerf heroes in this manner. Funny thing is, while new, OP heroes are good for making them a quick buck, it hurts them in the long run. Now people have invested time and money on these heroes - and balancing (aka nerfing them) is going to make people upset. If they had simply made all heroes OP, in some way or another, from the very start, this issue would not exist.

Also, if they would just re-work older heroes as if they were released yesterday, and just get it over with, the game would be much more fun. Imagine every hero being viable in PvP - some, obviously, more than others - but still viable in some way or another, nonetheless! The best part is, this wouldn't hurt their profits - If anything, it would increase them. Lemme explain.

Again taking League for example (because despite the horrible community, the game developers themselves are geniuses), their rotating meta of 'good' and 'bad' champions actually keeps the revenue flowing at a constant rate. People will just keep buying things for whatever champion is good at the time - whether it be the champion themselves, skins, or anything else - The rotating meta keeps people interested, and always gives them something to spend money on.

With Dungeon Boss, they've put themselves in a bind by going with the usual 'Freemium Hero Collect-'Em-All' trope of making the free heroes weak as wet noodles, and the heroes you have to pay for (or, at least, have to pay to make stronger within a short amount of time) extremely powerful. Now, I get some of it is that, over the years, they've gotten more experienced. I understand that at the game's launch (the current version, not the Alpha), they couldn't have made things like skins, Zomm's Zomminion mechanic, Reptiles and invincibility, Solaris' charge-n-revive mechanic... I get that.

But the least they could do now is just rip the bandaid off, buff old heroes, nerf new ones, and just get it over with. I understand they're legitimate developers, and we're just fans. But surely, surely when an entire fanbase is crying out for change, listening to them can't be bad, right? If they more-or-less balanced all heroes, then made the meta-game an ever-shifting playing field (the seasonal buffs/debuffs thing was actually a REALLY good step in that direction, by the way. Why did those stop?), I guarantee you, you wouldn't see players leaving.

But, if every hero is balanced, you might ask, 'Then what about the portals? Why would anyone use anything but the Great Summon?'

Hmm. I'm asking myself that, really. Well - Perhaps, not every hero has to be perfectly balanced. That's impossible. Too much choice is, after all, still a bad thing. This is just an iPhone AppStore Freemium game, at the end of the day. Perhaps they would not have to go all out on balancing. All I am suggesting is that they re-work the older heroes, nerf the newer ones (or don't, if the re-works for the older heroes are good enough), while still leaving just enough of a margin that players would still have an incentive to go for those Heroic Portal heroes. Plus, if whales have taught us anything, it's that the size of the advantage does not matter - It's that the advantage exists.

Make Heroic/Honor Portal heroes just slightly better than the Great Portal ones, and you'll still have the whales at your fingertips. Plus, an ever-changing meta would mean that even casual players would have a shot at doing good in PvP without spending a dime - While the whales wouldn't be disadvantaged at all, as they would have all the heroes a casual player would, and then some.

And what about those who have all the weak, early-game heroes 6*'d already? Those who wouldn't need to spend anything on them, even if they were made stronger and the meta constantly shifted? Well, then I suppose they wouldn't have to spend anything. No amount of change would ever force these players to spend money on anything Rogar-related. I say that's a moot point. But what this would do is give newer players a reason to spend. Maybe someone starting the game just loves Willow, or Sifu, or Selwyn. Give them a reason. Give them a reason to spend money on those heroes! This sounds evil, but: The more heroes you can monetize, the longer your game will survive!

And I mean this in the least possible evil way! After all, us who have already spent money, or simply ground (grinded?) our way to the top would not have to buy these things. We would not complain. And those who are new, well, it's their choice. It should be fairly obvious after just beating the first few chapters than many heroes are farmable. Smart spenders would turn away, but you would get those few who would take the deal. And so, make it a good deal. Give them something to write home about. 'Wow, 250 Sifu tokens for $5? That's a steal!' Except now, it really is, because Sifu would have been reworked to be stronger in PvP. Those who don't want to spend can just do it the hard way. That's what buying micro-transactions is about. Taking the easy way out for your money. That's not evil, that's how any business works.

But I'm getting off topic, aren't I? Your biggest issue, Dungeon Boss, is hero balancing (in my opinion, anyways). So stop for a second, slow down on the new heroes (although I am excited about a new Christmas hero), and pay attention to the heroes who got you where you are today! Originally, there was no broken hero other than IGOROK - and even he was countered by the likes of Tsume and Willow. Originally, PvP was fun, interesting, expansive, and diverse! You've trapped yourselves in a pit, because your constant money grabs have made the game less fun! So just stop! Go back to how it used to be - but by moving forwards! Make those old heroes who we enjoyed playing with so much viable again!

I'm sick of using the same pool of 10~ (give or take) heroes to even stand a chance in PvP. I'm sick of seeing the forums collapse into a sea of misery and complaints, while you seem to keep ignoring what we, the players, want! Ask yourself - Is this really the best route you're taking for the long-term survival of the game? How long can you survive on the whales alone? Make Dungeon Boss a GAME again, not the CHORE that it is now. The marketing ploy. The pit-fall of micro-transactions and gambling. We're the players who got you here in the first place! I say we have just as much - if not more of a say - in this game's future as you do!

So please, just bring back what made this game good - Having a full roster of collectable heroes who were all fun to play, level up, and battle through challenging dungeons. All of those traits are quickly fading. But it's not too late. I believe in you guys.

I'm sorry for getting so cheesy, I just work myself up too easily. I hope this makes you guys think for a second or two.
Level: 70
Favorite hero: Hansuke
Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.

Comments

  • I would love to see more variation with the PvP buffs and debuffs, making every week a new meta. As much as I hated being perma-drenched that one season, it shook things up a bit.

    Here are 5 tangible Suggestions:
    1. All heroes START (not permanent like those certain boss dungeons) Burning, Poisoned, Diseased, Shocked, Drenched - simple formula is to make this rotate with boss island - imagine how fun/awful saturday would be when your teams start Poisoned, Burning, AND Drenched!
    2. Weekly "Legacy Bonus" - Specific Great Portal Heroes receive substantial buffs for the week (something like ekko, where they at least get a turn!)
    3. Hero Lockouts - This would be a fun one for a lot of us and I think a lot could be done with it. The lockouts could be for Offense, Defense, or Both
    4. Survival Mode - This will never happen, but lock recently used heroes on your current win streak until you lose again - possible refreshes for gems. Anything that makes streaks less important, really.
    5. "Randomizer" - Let the AI randomly pick your attack team - The caveat here needs to be a guaranteed and SIGNIFICANT buff (since there is such awful balance) and also a much much higher payout of trophies, like 5-10X normal. This will also invigorate the core Dungeon Boss philosophy of collecting and powering up heroes, because you never know when the AI will call upon Selwyn to score for you!
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    Are all plugs shameless?
  • And information flow from a select few players to the rest of the player community is key to making the general player public feel involved and enthused in the game.

    I find that when some of the top players make instructional videos, or offer their tips, to the general playing public, it reduces the feeling of haves-vs-have nots, makes new players feel welcome, and makes older players who do not currently benefit from active information sources more involved, happier players. All of those also result in much more financial support for the game.

    I would strongly encourage the developers of this game to support top players providing public guidance to the general player population. Keeping "secrets" helps noone in the end. The developers simply react to the most powerful players' success by making things harder to achieve and thereby less enjoyable for the rest of the game playing public.

    That's one thing that's always bothered me about this genre of game. There are others, but this one stands out in my mind this seaason.

    So as we enter each event, some players know a lot better how to prepare, and how to succeed at the event. Those who do not are likely to feel discouraged, left out of "summit" style discussions, and less likely to play, contribute to the community and buy stuff.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    ckall056 wrote: »
    3. Hero Lockouts - This would be a fun one for a lot of us and I think a lot could be done with it. The lockouts could be for Offense, Defense, or Both

    Oh man, that would be awesome! I'm just wondering how that would affect PvP Defenses that are already made, especially those of players who left the game. Would it just boot the locked heroes out of the teams? Even if it alerted you, you could already have been raided multiple times with a 3-man team... And for those players who left the game, if enough 'lock-out' seasons passed, would their teams just be reduced to nothing?

    Don't get me wrong, that's an amazing idea. I just don't know how they can effectively do that. Perhaps Defenses will simply have locked-out heroes swapped with random heroes that aren't locked. That'll make beating 'dead' players' teams easy as pie, but at least they'll have teams of four.
    sirtainly wrote: »
    And information flow from a select few players to the rest of the player community is key to making the general player public feel involved and enthused in the game.

    I find that when some of the top players make instructional videos, or offer their tips, to the general playing public, it reduces the feeling of haves-vs-have nots, makes new players feel welcome, and makes older players who do not currently benefit from active information sources more involved, happier players. All of those also result in much more financial support for the game.

    I would strongly encourage the developers of this game to support top players providing public guidance to the general player population. Keeping "secrets" helps noone in the end. The developers simply react to the most powerful players' success by making things harder to achieve and thereby less enjoyable for the rest of the game playing public.

    That's one thing that's always bothered me about this genre of game. There are others, but this one stands out in my mind this seaason.

    So as we enter each event, some players know a lot better how to prepare, and how to succeed at the event. Those who do not are likely to feel discouraged, left out of "summit" style discussions, and less likely to play, contribute to the community and buy stuff.

    Absolutely agree. And giving bonuses to your top paying players, or players who have been around the longest, is fine. You just can't make those bonuses so ridiculous that it totally ruins any dreams new players have. Imagine starting Dungeon Boss right now. Today. It would be so intimidating! They've honestly just made it horrifying for new players to join. PvP is a huge part of that, too. Without a solid roster and runes, you'll get crushed. Which is understandable... But balancing 'low tier' heroes would solve a huge part of that.

    Speaking of rewarding their long-time players, what's with VIP? I just got to VIP 10 and there's nothing here! You'd think they'd give you some sort of tangible reward for spending money other than, 'Deals for when you spend even MORE money!'.

    I think someone suggested a little while back, daily gems for VIP players. VIP 10 would give like, 100 daily gems or something. Maybe that's too much, maybe that would make the have/have-not divide even larger, but their point stands. VIP means 'very important person'. As of now, it feels like it should stand for 'Very Irritated Player'.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • while i do agree that some heroes are fairly bad and you have to use a small pool of heroes to work

    does this issue really compare to anything like LOL or clash royale where balance is all the more blatantly thrown out the window?
    At least, these developers have done their very best




    as i have said before, dungeon boss was refreshing for having a good community, a fairly well balanced game, and a super fun game
    not to mention the devs usually listen in some way shape or form and respond to complaints


    have i mentioned you guys are nowhere NEAR as toxic as the other communities i have been a part of? i love you guys to the moon and back for that!



    my point is, even with all that has happened thus far and them slowly shifting into this pit, i still cannot hate them for what they have done in terms of choices, as what they have given me already has helped me through some really rough patches

    so yeah, balance it a bit more
    but we cannot give the impression that the end is near for dungeon boss's golden age
    we are far from that, i can tell you
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    while i do agree that some heroes are fairly bad and you have to use a small pool of heroes to work

    does this issue really compare to anything like LOL or clash royale where balance is all the more blatantly thrown out the window?
    At least, these developers have done their very best




    as i have said before, dungeon boss was refreshing for having a good community, a fairly well balanced game, and a super fun game
    not to mention the devs usually listen in some way shape or form and respond to complaints


    have i mentioned you guys are nowhere NEAR as toxic as the other communities i have been a part of? i love you guys to the moon and back for that!



    my point is, even with all that has happened thus far and them slowly shifting into this pit, i still cannot hate them for what they have done in terms of choices, as what they have given me already has helped me through some really rough patches

    so yeah, balance it a bit more
    but we cannot give the impression that the end is near for dungeon boss's golden age
    we are far from that, i can tell you

    Saying League isn’t balanced is just a common joke, imo. If you really look at it, it’s an incredibly balanced game. With of course, a touch of inbalance caused by the meta. But it changes, so that’s good.

    By comparison, Dungeon Boss is totally unbalanced. Many heroes are just statistical upgrades to others with no benefits.

    I’m not saying the game’s going to die. I don’t like it when people do. Every game is going to die eventually. All I’m saying is that if the devs want this game to live as long as possible, they ought to start listening to their player base a bit more.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.



  • while i do agree that some heroes are fairly bad and you have to use a small pool of heroes to work

    does this issue really compare to anything like LOL or clash royale where balance is all the more blatantly thrown out the window?
    At least, these developers have done their very best




    as i have said before, dungeon boss was refreshing for having a good community, a fairly well balanced game, and a super fun game
    not to mention the devs usually listen in some way shape or form and respond to complaints


    have i mentioned you guys are nowhere NEAR as toxic as the other communities i have been a part of? i love you guys to the moon and back for that!



    my point is, even with all that has happened thus far and them slowly shifting into this pit, i still cannot hate them for what they have done in terms of choices, as what they have given me already has helped me through some really rough patches

    so yeah, balance it a bit more
    but we cannot give the impression that the end is near for dungeon boss's golden age
    we are far from that, i can tell you

    Saying League isn’t balanced is just a common joke, imo. If you really look at it, it’s an incredibly balanced game. With of course, a touch of inbalance caused by the meta. But it changes, so that’s good.

    By comparison, Dungeon Boss is totally unbalanced. Many heroes are just statistical upgrades to others with no benefits.

    I’m not saying the game’s going to die. I don’t like it when people do. Every game is going to die eventually. All I’m saying is that if the devs want this game to live as long as possible, they ought to start listening to their player base a bit more.



    maybe i can add another maybe 10 examples of games where the devs care less than a rat about the player base and balance to prove my point
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator


    while i do agree that some heroes are fairly bad and you have to use a small pool of heroes to work

    does this issue really compare to anything like LOL or clash royale where balance is all the more blatantly thrown out the window?
    At least, these developers have done their very best




    as i have said before, dungeon boss was refreshing for having a good community, a fairly well balanced game, and a super fun game
    not to mention the devs usually listen in some way shape or form and respond to complaints


    have i mentioned you guys are nowhere NEAR as toxic as the other communities i have been a part of? i love you guys to the moon and back for that!



    my point is, even with all that has happened thus far and them slowly shifting into this pit, i still cannot hate them for what they have done in terms of choices, as what they have given me already has helped me through some really rough patches

    so yeah, balance it a bit more
    but we cannot give the impression that the end is near for dungeon boss's golden age
    we are far from that, i can tell you

    Saying League isn’t balanced is just a common joke, imo. If you really look at it, it’s an incredibly balanced game. With of course, a touch of inbalance caused by the meta. But it changes, so that’s good.

    By comparison, Dungeon Boss is totally unbalanced. Many heroes are just statistical upgrades to others with no benefits.

    I’m not saying the game’s going to die. I don’t like it when people do. Every game is going to die eventually. All I’m saying is that if the devs want this game to live as long as possible, they ought to start listening to their player base a bit more.



    maybe i can add another maybe 10 examples of games where the devs care less than a rat about the player base and balance to prove my point

    Why are you being so aggressive? There's like... what, an unfathomable number of games out there? I'd die before I counted every video game. Of course there's at least 10 examples. There's at least 100,000, without a doubt. But does that mean Dungeon Boss should get to set their standards lower? Absolutely not. Just because some kid in the class got an F doesn't mean your C+ is perfect.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
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