Rebalancing Damage Reduction/Damage Penetration - Characters need to have a Damage Pen. Passive

I appreciate the devs making sweeping combat changes; gone are the days of the 1 shot MK opening kills, where PvP was all about whose MK or Koros could go off first.

However, I believe the devs overshot the mark with the release of Goretusk and the damage reduction adjustments. Though it is now impossible to achieve 100% damage reduction, the developers have made it much easier to hit the 90% cap and stay there for a good portions of the match. When you're talking about big hitters vs. full DR, you run into situations were a full attack Rogue DP focused Shade, is doing about 3,000 damage to a Hopper who has an estimated 12,000 life (i.e., would have hit for 30,000 if no DR). Yes, you can focus on GT first, but in so doing, you open up your team to the other toons, namely an attack-runed Zomm or Hopper, which will cripple your squad in a turn, two at most.

In general, runes balance themselves; Destruction/Aegis runes will end up with the same % of Damage Reduction/Penetration, etc. The issue is that, as far as i know (level 68), there are no heroes that provide a damage penetration passive, while multiple heroes provide a damage reduction passive.

The main issue, of course, is Goretusk, who provides a 75% DR passive to begin a match, and even at 6 momentum ends up giving out a 15% DR. Combined with rune passives, opponents will start out with 125% DR, meaning that you need to reduce GT multiple times to have a chance at lowering the 90% collective DR. (anything over 90% DR gets reduced to 90% DR, so hitting GT a few times to get him from 75% to 50% just means total DR went from 125% to 100% . . . .which BOTH get reduced to 90%, meaning no effective change).

I think the only way to counter this is to adjust current heroes, or add a new hero that provides damage penetration as a passive. At a high level, the options are to either go full attack, and hope that you can kill their GT, Lily or Hopper before Turn 2, or try a damage reduction strat yourself and win a 10 minute war of attrition. Balanced heroes have almost no place; runs are either 4-1 Attack/Defense or Defense/Attack oriented.

The other option would be to reduce the Mammoth Guard passive to only last through 3 charges, going from 75% at 1, 50% at 2 and 25% at 3, with the 4th momentum charge removing the passive all together. The fact that you have to focus on a fast tank for 6+ hits before you can legitimately wear down an opponent is just too far the other direction.

Sorry for the novel, just getting frustrated with the unbalanced META at the moment and wanted to provide a constructive solution rather than just throw a tantrum.

Comments

  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    Agreed. Now that damage reduction passives like Armored and Flying are now more powerful by comparison to runes, there ought to be heroes with flat damage penetration. Or change more moves to ignore DR. Maybe Rogues could use a buff? Like how Casters deal bonus damage to Tanks and Slow heroes, Rogues could ignore DR, or at least a fraction of DR? Pretty much all the Rogues need a buff anyways.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • Agreed. Now that damage reduction passives like Armored and Flying are now more powerful by comparison to runes, there ought to be heroes with flat damage penetration. Or change more moves to ignore DR. Maybe Rogues could use a buff? Like how Casters deal bonus damage to Tanks and Slow heroes, Rogues could ignore DR, or at least a fraction of DR? Pretty much all the Rogues need a buff anyways.

    @JackHallow666 Good point on armored/Flying pushing things even farther out than my 125% example.

    I realize that DP is supposed to do double duty as reducing DR AND increasing damage by a %, but I believe it's capped at 50% on a hero. A full DR Runed Flyer has 175% DR with GT (aka, Solaris), and it is impossible to have enough DP to reduce the opponent's DR below 90%. Add in a 1st round Ferno . . . yuck.

    Also, I don't know if folks appreciate what a 90% DR means. Taking a 25,000 damage attack down to 2500, combined with even the currently nerfed healing is enormous.

    I just feel that we're in a turtle META.

    I like the Rogue idea; with MK's nerf, the only "rogues" that are viable are SB and Ekko (though it's funny to think of Ekko as a rogue). There needs to be some counter to DR. Maybe make that part of Perfect Swing and give Dwarves a major boost, or give it to Goblins. Both those Families could be really cool, but have 0 place right now.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    xandrew29 wrote: »
    Agreed. Now that damage reduction passives like Armored and Flying are now more powerful by comparison to runes, there ought to be heroes with flat damage penetration. Or change more moves to ignore DR. Maybe Rogues could use a buff? Like how Casters deal bonus damage to Tanks and Slow heroes, Rogues could ignore DR, or at least a fraction of DR? Pretty much all the Rogues need a buff anyways.

    @JackHallow666 Good point on armored/Flying pushing things even farther out than my 125% example.

    I realize that DP is supposed to do double duty as reducing DR AND increasing damage by a %, but I believe it's capped at 50% on a hero. A full DR Runed Flyer has 175% DR with GT (aka, Solaris), and it is impossible to have enough DP to reduce the opponent's DR below 90%. Add in a 1st round Ferno . . . yuck.

    Also, I don't know if folks appreciate what a 90% DR means. Taking a 25,000 damage attack down to 2500, combined with even the currently nerfed healing is enormous.

    I just feel that we're in a turtle META.

    I like the Rogue idea; with MK's nerf, the only "rogues" that are viable are SB and Ekko (though it's funny to think of Ekko as a rogue). There needs to be some counter to DR. Maybe make that part of Perfect Swing and give Dwarves a major boost, or give it to Goblins. Both those Families could be really cool, but have 0 place right now.

    Don't forget Viperia. She's a somewhat viable Rogue as well. I don't think Perfect Swing should counter DR, but still agree that Dwarves and Goblins (Oh, and Demons too) need some cooler race-unique passive abilities. Dwarves could get Resolute Stance, the passive they have during Dwarf rune wars, but combine it with Perfect Swing into one ability and have it on all Dwarves, all the time.

    Goblins have lots of synergy, it's just that their stats and abilities are completely lackluster. Basically every ability on every Goblin is just 'do more damage', with the exception of Bramble's taunt and dance, and NubNub's healing skills. If Goblins had more ways to purge, silence, disease, poison, any debuff really - That would make them infinitely better. They could make Zurk fast, ignore taunts, and have his first ability guarantee a Crit so Goblins could enter PvP and be powered up right from the get-go. That'd make them a threat.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • I like Zurk but agree that he is a lousy hero.. I tried to max him up as an experiment to counter casters (read shade, zomm, ) but Zurk just sucks.. he can't survive even the 1st round, can't even 1 shot casters :(
  • I may be in the minority here, but I find GT very unthreatening as a defensive hero. I mostly just ignore him. Using the current lily/Solaris based meta offense, GT feels irrelevant as a defender.

    He can be awesome on offense however due to the ability to manage his momentum and use the abilities at the right time.
  • I think the problem is more a symptom of a narrow meta (small pool of pvp-viable heroes) than DP/DR issues or rogue dps.

    Rogues generally deal plenty of damage but the majority of rogues are outright useless except for a few. For example, Daeris(30kdmginround2GG), SB, Lupina, and Hopper all see a fair amount of play. I use Viperia often.
    Also, that tankbuster rogue described already exists to some extent--Nimerel! But she is trash and completely overlooked which demonstrates my narrow meta point.

    Rock-paper-scissor dynamics are central to this game. Giving free DP to rogues may break that dynamic resulting in armor/DR actually becoming a debuff. Thematically and mechanically an armored hero should mitigate physical damage (aka rogue damage) but is weak to caster damage (mystical).
    If an armored/DR hero is weak against both magic and rogue damage, then they have no strengths and all weaknesses. This also applies to flying heroes, as DR is needed to offset relatively low hp pools.

    I do agree that GT is probably overcooked as far as DR goes. 10 minute wars of attrition aren't fun, the one shot meta wasn't fun either. While I think DR/DP changes are a step in the right direction Devs need to continue balancing this game. Imo this starts with fixing/making more heroes useful, adding value to utility abilities (CC, shields, charm, etc), and re-tune healing.
    the amount of Shades in this game...is just TOO DANG HIGH!
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    davinchi wrote: »
    I think the problem is more a symptom of a narrow meta (small pool of pvp-viable heroes) than DP/DR issues or rogue dps.

    Rogues generally deal plenty of damage but the majority of rogues are outright useless except for a few. For example, Daeris(30kdmginround2GG), SB, Lupina, and Hopper all see a fair amount of play. I use Viperia often.
    Also, that tankbuster rogue described already exists to some extent--Nimerel! But she is trash and completely overlooked which demonstrates my narrow meta point.

    Rock-paper-scissor dynamics are central to this game. Giving free DP to rogues may break that dynamic resulting in armor/DR actually becoming a debuff. Thematically and mechanically an armored hero should mitigate physical damage (aka rogue damage) but is weak to caster damage (mystical).
    If an armored/DR hero is weak against both magic and rogue damage, then they have no strengths and all weaknesses. This also applies to flying heroes, as DR is needed to offset relatively low hp pools.

    I do agree that GT is probably overcooked as far as DR goes. 10 minute wars of attrition aren't fun, the one shot meta wasn't fun either. While I think DR/DP changes are a step in the right direction Devs need to continue balancing this game. Imo this starts with fixing/making more heroes useful, adding value to utility abilities (CC, shields, charm, etc), and re-tune healing.

    Giving Rogues natural DP wouldn’t make having DR a weakness. It’s not like they’re doing extra damage because they have DR, they’d just be ignoring a bit of it.

    PS, when I say Rogues should have natural DP, I don’t mean actual DP like you get from runes - because that also increases damage by a base amount. I mean that Rogues should just ignore a portion of enemy DR. It would still play out so the more DR they have, the less damage they take from Rogues, it would just be a bit less effective.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
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