Suggestions for Fixing the Post-Revamp PvP Meta

ScoutYoScoutYo Member
edited January 30 in My Dungeon Discussion
A lot of end-game PvPers are pretty frustrated with the current state of PvP. I'm hoping we can make some constructive suggestions about how the devs might go about addressing the major post-revamp issues.

The biggest problem for me is the huge increase in average match length. I think Goretusk and Solaris are the main causes. A lot of people point to Lily, but she wouldn't be nearly as frustrating to fight if she wasn't protected by 75% post-revamp super DR on top of potentially being Rezd (alongside GT) over and over.

My suggestions on a place to start fixing the meta:

-- Make Sol only able to rez each ally once, or put a debuff on heroes post-rez that prevents them from being rezd again for a significant number of rounds.

Another option would be to start Sol at zero stacks instead of 3, so she can't insta-return the first time she's KOd.

-- Make GT a Monster ... actually, make GT pretty much anything other than a Beast. I mean, he could be a were-elephant dwarf for all most people would care (actually, that would be pretty awesome). Anything other than a Beast.

Also, nerf Mammoth Guard a bit. 75% DR for the entire team is way too much, post-revamp.

Making changes to Sol and GT wouldn't address all the issues with the current meta, but it'd hugely open up the options for endgame PvP and (I think) keep a lot of people placated while the rest is being fixed.

What does everybody else suggest?

Comments

  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    I think Gore is fine as a Beast hero as long as Solaris gets nerfed, and his DR gets nerfed. Then he's just a Fast hero with a single target freeze who occasionally takes your aim off his allies for a turn or so. Not really a game-changer.

    As for other suggestions, they should make Skill even more impactful. As it stands, it's just not worth it. I think a hero with 2,000 Skill should have things affected by skill increased by 1.5x, +.25x effect for every 1,000 Skill. That goes for healing, debuffs, buffs, everything. Maybe that's too powerful, but we'll never know until it's implemented - And we can definitely say for sure that Skill is too weak right now.

    And of course, buff healing. But not just "undo the healing nerf", make all Healers somewhat-equally viable. If we just reverted the nerf, Yasmin and Nubs would still be much better healers than the likes of Emily, Augustus, or Zen. They should rework all the Healers carefully so that each one has their use. Nub's Voodoo chant shouldn't heal the whole team to 100% health each turn, but maybe 40% each turn wouldn't hurt? Yasmin's Team Heal was, and still is, practically useless. Maybe make it buff DEF (as opposed to Ember's first ability buffing ATK), and heal for way more. Make Emily have either a team heal instead of Cleanse, or replace Purging Smash with another Healing move.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • LafooteLafoote Member
    edited January 30
    It's funny, individually GT and Sol are manageable. Together they're ridiculous.

    GT is very rarely at the 75% DR threshold. Even the 30% is a big amount though. On defense, having full energy allows him to shed momentum quickly and maintain higher DR. This makes def GT disproportionately better than atk GT. This is true of all heroes to a small degree, but momentum is a special case that really takes advantage.

    Sol when not rezzing GT or Leo is barely an annoyance. It's really GT and his ability to make her neigh invulnerable, AND rez him that makes things dicey.

    So, we're basically dealing with a 3 team meta right now. Beasts, GT/Lilly, and Daeris. Everything else is garbage. What do we do?

    I would investigate having GT's second ability trigger a 2 or 3 turn cooldown on his third. This would make damaging defenders far more viable as GT's momentum count would actually increase. The downside of course, is GT will deal greater damage. Watch out!

    Perhaps Daeris' Purple Rain should ignore external modifiers(boosts). It's flat out broken in conjunction with Shade. Maybe Doom Blade too.

    Sol? Not sure if Sol will require adjustment if GT is adjusted. She's really not the problem, she just exacerbates it.

    I like Jack's idea of healing rework. As is the group heals are nearly worthless. It's important to have a distinction between the power of group and individual heals for the most part, but someone like Nub doesn't bring a lot else to the table. Having a dramatic group heal is what made him viable. Now he's worthless.
  • Dagrund needs some help, too. The passive heal he gets from being teamed with Valkin was absolutely gutted in the revamp. The dwarves didn't need any more help being a non-viable PvP team.

    Solaris, on the other hand, doesn't need much - if any - adjustments to healing power. She already makes fights take longer than they should in this meta (like @Lafoote wrote, especially with GT around) ....

    ... which is the biggest issue with "fixing" healing. A lot of healers definitely need a boost, but the devs will have to handle it in a way that doesn't prolong these overlong matches even more, which means other tweaks will likely have to come along with the healing fixes.
  • I don’t understand the GT complaints. I love seeing their fast slot taken by GT instead of several of the more threatening heroes. Most of the time, he may as well not even be there. Ignore him, kill the rest.
  • I don't think GT makes fights disproportionately hard. He just makes them annoyingly long for a lot of people, when paired with Sol. There are teams that can speed things up considerably, but those teams (at least the ones I'm aware of) rely on runes that are out of reach for most players and (at least in my experience) aren't quite as reliable as some of the slower, safer options.
  • I don’t understand the GT complaints. I love seeing their fast slot taken by GT instead of several of the more threatening heroes. Most of the time, he may as well not even be there. Ignore him, kill the rest.

    With Superior def runes, fast heroes are never threatening.

  • The length of time for a match is annoying for most of the Solaris GT teams, It’s hard to maintain a winning streak due to life/time constraints. I feel like i have to walk away from winning streaks now that one fight takes the time three or four used to take.
  • Lafoote wrote: »
    I don’t understand the GT complaints. I love seeing their fast slot taken by GT instead of several of the more threatening heroes. Most of the time, he may as well not even be there. Ignore him, kill the rest.

    With Superior def runes, fast heroes are never threatening.

    Shade still is. Lupina is more of a threat than GT as a fast beast. If they don’t have GT or those, they’ll often replace with normal speed heroes like Leo (super annoying) or Ferno (as protective as GT but was more damaging.

    Point was, GT is at the top of the list of (meta relevant) heroes I want to see when I’m attacking.
  • davinchidavinchi Member
    edited January 30
    Nice post.
    I wonder why there is little to no feedback from devs on major issues like this and other equally insightful posts written by various players.

    Blues will respond to posts that an experienced player or mod can answer, such as:
    • why Hansuke hit me more than 3 times
    • why my healing was cut in half (vines)
    For big issues there is not a peep, such as:
    • why healing is so inconsequential now (regardless of skill)
    • why MK was nerfed so heavily
    • why the majority of heroes (and whole families/colors) remain bad with no fix in sight
    • pvp still imbalanced
    • Shade OP and has been since release
    • Solaris probably OP -- made Emily obsolete
    • 15-20 minute beast battles
    • post-revamp tower is probably too hard for new>mid players
    • skill still has very little value
    • outrageous prices for junk bundles *see dwarf team
    Maybe this forum is mainly for announcements and identifying/fixing bugs; but there are many posts (like this one) that bring up legit points that deserve some sort of acknowledgement from blues. Meh, I probably expect too much.
    the amount of Shades in this game...is just TOO DANG HIGH!
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    davinchi wrote: »
    Nice post.
    I wonder why there is little to no feedback from devs on major issues like this and other equally insightful posts.

    Blues will respond to posts that an experienced player or mod can answer, such as:
    • why Hansuke hit me more than 3 times
    • why my healing was cut in half (vines)
    For big issues there is not a peep, such as:
    • why healing is so inconsequential now (regardless of skill)
    • why MK was nerfed so heavily
    • why the majority of heroes (and whole families/colors) remain bad with no fix in sight
    • pvp still imbalanced
    • Shade OP and has been since release
    • Solaris probably OP -- made Emily obsolete
    • 15-20 minute beast battles
    • post-revamp tower is probably too hard for new>mid players
    • skill still has very little value
    • outrageous prices for junk bundles *see dwarf team
    Maybe this forum is mainly for announcements and identifying/fixing bugs; but there are many posts (like this one) that bring up legit points that deserve some sort of acknowledgement from blues. Meh, I probably expect too much.

    I think the summit’s was our last hope of talking to them on even grounds, and even that idea died out pretty fast.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • Part of the problem, i think relates to the constant rework that beast seem to get. No other family has anywhere close to the synergies that have been focused on beast. Seems like an ‘easy’ (and I say this lightly bc i don’t write programming code :smile: ) place to start would be to build off the synergies that are in place already by increasing the multipliers. (I.e. dwarven heart could increase health by 50% instead of 40% for example). As far as the skill/healing, would any buff there really make a difference? For me I say no, I would rather have attack, defense and dr on my toons even if you spent a bunch of time redoing skill. So I would say undo the heal buff bc at the end of the day for me, it will never be a preferred stat. I’ll ofc use a rune that has skill incorporated into it, but I don’t think I would ever chose skill over the others.
  • If you use the right teams matches are not terrible long. Yea the occasional 6-7 rounders happen. Most fights are over in 1-3 rounds depending on rune power.
  • davinchi wrote: »
    Nice post.
    I wonder why there is little to no feedback from devs on major issues like this and other equally insightful posts written by various players.

    Blues will respond to posts that an experienced player or mod can answer, such as:
    • why Hansuke hit me more than 3 times
    • why my healing was cut in half (vines)
    For big issues there is not a peep, such as:
    • why healing is so inconsequential now (regardless of skill)
    • why MK was nerfed so heavily
    • why the majority of heroes (and whole families/colors) remain bad with no fix in sight
    • pvp still imbalanced
    • Shade OP and has been since release
    • Solaris probably OP -- made Emily obsolete
    • 15-20 minute beast battles
    • post-revamp tower is probably too hard for new>mid players
    • skill still has very little value
    • outrageous prices for junk bundles *see dwarf team
    Maybe this forum is mainly for announcements and identifying/fixing bugs; but there are many posts (like this one) that bring up legit points that deserve some sort of acknowledgement from blues. Meh, I probably expect too much.

    Pure speculation on my part - one or more of the following reasons may account for one or all of the points you mentioned above:

    - They may have different insights on how some of the heroes are intended to be used and feel the player base just hasn't discovered it yet.
    - They may feel the vocal player base in the forum is not representative of the majority of players
    - They may feel that whatever they change, something will come up to fill its place - i.e. the user base is always complaining about SOMETHING-like a game of whackamole.
    - They may be limited in resources and time to make more difficult changes and communicate to the forum base.
    - They may be following other sources of direction such as game data they collect and/or directives from management.
    - They may be patterning their decisions after what they feel maximizes financial profit and/or is a braod strategy that seems to work across other games.
    - Their development tools may have limits or portions of the underlying game code may be much harder or time consuming to fix/repair/replace than others.
    - They may be working on more than one mobile game at a time.

    You pick. I probably missed a few.
    I'm just guessing in the dark, anyway.
  • ScoutYoScoutYo Member
    edited February 5
    Benoo7 wrote: »
    If you use the right teams matches are not terrible long. Yea the occasional 6-7 rounders happen. Most fights are over in 1-3 rounds depending on rune power.
    That depends on a whole host of factors, including level, Roster Power (or more accurately the power of the ~19 heroes that have an effect on matchmaking), day of the week, luck, etc.

    Agreed, there are teams that can potentially end a level 70, 5400 RP GT/GG/Sol/Lily defense in 1-3 rounds, but a lot of people I know (especially those with high roster power but without tons of superior Duelist and Champion runes) are struggling to find one that is reliable enough for them to use when a big streak is on the line.
    Post edited by ScoutYo on
  • @sirtainly I'm guessing, in addition to what you listed, policy about what they can and cannot communicate plays a large role. For example, I'd guess that the policy is to go radio silent on bugs they don't intend to fix (because the engine makes it too difficult, expensive,or time-consuming). That's not uncommon for other development houses. For the record, I'm not a fan of policies like that, but they're very common.

    I feel a little bad for @Joel sometimes. I bet there are plenty of things he'd like to comment on (or comment more freely on), if he could.
  • I don’t understand the GT complaints. I love seeing their fast slot taken by GT instead of several of the more threatening heroes. Most of the time, he may as well not even be there. Ignore him, kill the rest.

    GT himself isn't that threatening, outside of a decent momentum Avalanche. It's the fact that it's almost impossible to 1-shot (or even 2 shot) the supporting heroes without first targeting GT. That, in turn, means you AREN'T taking out their heavy hitters (Grog/Zomm/Shade/Hansuke/Koros) first turn, which gives the opponent a leg up.

    Also, because of that insane 1st turn DR, the opponent can rune their other 3 heroes for attack. You can either rune yourself for defense, and survive a few rounds, or you go attack, maybe kill a tune or two, but be wiped out.

    Normally you have a choice between O and D. GT allows your entire team to have a high level defense, without sacrificing the attack power of 3/4 of your team. That's too much bang for your buck. Take the Shade, GT, Daeris, Sol combo on D. Daeris is the first normal speed hero. Between Shade and GT, she gets an auto 101-110% DR to start, reduced to 90%. Give me a scenario where you can realistically take out Daeris out before she gets to go off.

    In order to get her DR under 90%, you need to use at least 1 attack on GT. Meanwhile, his Shade and GT will have hit you.

    The only way I've beaten that team is using a Shade, Koros, Leo and Solaris team, with Leo resurrecting Shade/Koros after Daeris, Shade further reducing GT's DR, then Koros 1-shotting everyone not named Solaris. Their Solaris goes, due to DR, kills everyone AGAIN, except my sol, who can ressurrect everyone for a 2nd turn kill (only because my Koros has both Festive Runes on him, allowing his 2nd ability to go 2nd turn).

    However, if Leo doesn't die off the bat, or his shade kills my Leo first, I'm 100% toast. Yay RNG.

    Anyways, the point @ScoutYo makes is that GT provides way too much value for 1 toon slot. He's basically an aegis wall for nothing. I'd like to see his 3rd skill be to activate a 3 turn 50% DR buff or something like that, rather than an auto 75% DR off the bat.

    *Note: I absolutely use a defensive GT on defense, with a 17,000 defense stat and both Sup Guardian and Survivor runes. I know how OP he can be. I'm switching to Daeris from Lily as soon as Daeris gets to be 6* (I'm a younger player, not even a year into the game).
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