Can we discuss Goretusk counterplay?

The hallmark of a good strategy game is counterplay. The enemy throws archers, you counter with cavalry. The enemy throws cavalry, you counter with pikemen. The enemy throws pikemen, you counter with archers. That sort of thing.

Goretusk teams, specifically with Lilly, Grog Gnog, and Solaris, don't really have that. Gore in particular is the issue because of how many different tools and synergies he has available to him that largely make him unreasonable to deal with.

What does he have at his disposal?

1) Fast. Him having a freeze wouldn't *normally* be a huge issue, but since he is fast this team guarantees a freeze against any non-immune team in defense. Koros, who could be a passable counter to beast teams due to removal of phoenix feather, is frozen and killed before he is able to accomplish anything.

2) Beast synergy. With Grog and Solaris, he has 30% increased attack and either 66% or 88% increased health based on the number of beasts on the team. That's what, having 4 stars over other characters? If he ever builds up momentum, Grog Gnog's bonus makes him actually deal significant damage to squishy characters with zero rune investments, when squishy characters can not do significant damage to Gore even with significant offensive investment.

3) Auto taunt. OK sure loads of tanks can taunt, but no other tank has the added utility that Gore can bring to the team.

4) MAMMOTH GUARD. This is the big one. Normally you would use a team with auto taunt to protect a squishy member who needs to survive to attack, and one could counter with shade. Not anymore, because everyone has 75% damage reduction. You could also counter by using AoE. Nope. There is no counterplay to this ability because you simply cannot get the damage penetration needed to do meaningful damage before reducing mammoth guard's power. I'm going to preface this by admitting I am not quite yet 70 and don't have a min/maxed team, but Shade -> Shadowblade seems to be some of the highest single target damage in the game and I only kill improperly runed Goretusks with that combo. Meanwhile, the entire rest of their team is more or less unable to be harmed. This is effectively preventing counter play. The most painful occurrence of this right now is Lilly, who can be killed normally with some dedication on the first round but becomes *absurdly* difficult to kill if she makes it to her second attack, and I can't find a way to kill her before second attack when Goretusk protects her.

5) Resurrection by Solaris. OK every character can be brought back, but let's remember something: the best counter to Solaris is eating her corpse when she dies. If she uses her final ability to resurrect her team, GT comes back with taunt thus removing that as an option, thus removing counterplay to Solaris. This forces me to play around leaving a character alive to force her fury move to deal damage to the team instead of resurrecting Goretusk, which leads to the issue of Grog's snow day enhanced frost breath freezing my team the same turn she wants to resurrect. Which means Goretusk's corpse *must* be removed, which requires dedicated members to do so. It's just too much.

As of right now I simply don't have a way to deal with Goretusk. I have every character, and probably the one that could help me (Daeris) is low stars due to how difficult it is to max her out. My tower win % is basically reflective of how many Goretusk teams I encounter, as a GT/GG/Lilly/Sol team is not possible for me to beat at equivalent level and rune progress with any combination of characters at my particular level.

It seems like the only way to deal with this to use the same team and hope to win the 15 minute long battle that I simply don't have time for every day.

Is there a fix on the horizon? I'm not asking for him to be removed from the game like MK was, but can we do something about mammoth guard? Alternatively, can we give someone a passive that grants massive amounts of penetration % to beasts? That at least makes it so there is a dedicated GT counter.

PVP isn't fun any more because of literally this one thing, and while I'll hold out for now if this remains the norm I just don't see myself sticking this game out long term.

Comments

  • I use Gore/Grog/Pig/Sol. Gore can give a stack(or two with Pig's passive) to the enemy Gore, Grog Slows especially Lily, Pig will just damage or cleanse taunt if debuffed, Solaris purges any snowday or other buffs. Then Gore freezes Lily and the rest focus Lily, by this time with all Grog's AOEs used up, the enemy Grog is normally dead and Solaris Probably already revived herself before Grog's death. Then just Kill Goretusk and Sol.
  • Boss 100 has the option to watch the last match. I suggest you start there and review the many variations of options we are using to defeat the current meta. GT is not an issue, you just have to reappraise how you attack a defense.
  • Skip_HolmesSkip_Holmes Member
    edited February 21
    I’m sure I’ll catch **** for this, but Gotetusk isn’t all that good. You only see him so often because he’s new. If he was a year old hero, you’d see him occasionally and never even worry about him.

    He serves to make a match last longer, and that’s it. Unlike every other hero in the current meta, he has no ability to swing a match. If you have the right team to win, you’re going to win whether GT is there or not. If you have the wrong team, you’re going to lose whether GT is there or not. Each of those things just takes two rounds longer to happen if he is there.
  • Boss 100 has the option to watch the last match. I suggest you start there and review the many variations of options we are using to defeat the current meta. GT is not an issue, you just have to reappraise how you attack a defense.

    That's marginally helpful, but only marginally. Character strengths and weaknesses are changed/reduced/increased at highest level of play due to massive runes that I don't yet have mass access to. Also Daeris seems to be a particular player to counter this, who I only have at 2 stars (this includes 50 shards of her I bought this event).

    I haven't yet found a way to get through GT to kill Lilly in time before no combination of characters I have can overcome her.
  • Also, watching the current top 5 replays isn't even remotely a good case for Goretusk. Each of them contained Goretusk, most of them had both players using him. One of the top 5 was an extremely high winrate player losing to a Goretusk defense. Two of them were *extremely* long winded fights that involve countless resurrections on both sides until Shade possessed enough corpses and Brom reduced enough max health.

    Awful to watch, awful to play.
  • I’m sure I’ll catch **** for this, but Gotetusk isn’t all that good. You only see him so often because he’s new. If he was a year old hero, you’d see him occasionally and never even worry about him.

    He serves to make a match last longer, and that’s it. Unlike every other hero in the current meta, he has no ability to swing a match. If you have the right team to win, you’re going to win whether GT is there or not. If you have the wrong team, you’re going to lose whether GT is there or not. Each of those things just takes two rounds longer to happen if he is there.

    What do you mean? He's in most top PvP defenses right now. He basically gives your team a free turn without taking damage, so you can go all attack runes on Shade/Daeris/Zomm, etc.

    It's much more about runes than team composition; at the top, you cannot get enough damage penetration to counteract his DR. Also, at 5 momemtum, the DR is STILL 30%, which is absurd.

    I'd like to see it at 75% at 1, 50% at 2, and 25% at 3, with Mammoth Guard gone at 4 momentum.
  • xandrew29 wrote: »
    I’m sure I’ll catch **** for this, but Gotetusk isn’t all that good. You only see him so often because he’s new. If he was a year old hero, you’d see him occasionally and never even worry about him.

    He serves to make a match last longer, and that’s it. Unlike every other hero in the current meta, he has no ability to swing a match. If you have the right team to win, you’re going to win whether GT is there or not. If you have the wrong team, you’re going to lose whether GT is there or not. Each of those things just takes two rounds longer to happen if he is there.

    What do you mean? He's in most top PvP defenses right now. He basically gives your team a free turn without taking damage, so you can go all attack runes on Shade/Daeris/Zomm, etc.

    It's much more about runes than team composition; at the top, you cannot get enough damage penetration to counteract his DR. Also, at 5 momemtum, the DR is STILL 30%, which is absurd.

    I'd like to see it at 75% at 1, 50% at 2, and 25% at 3, with Mammoth Guard gone at 4 momentum.


    He’s in most top defenses because 1-he’s the flavor of the month and 2-he’s a beast. That’s about it. And even that is starting to turn. A lot of us are experimenting with lupina in particular. There’s a reason you see all the 95%+ win rates in top 100 still. Once you get a good offensive team worked out, you’ll pretty much never lose to a GT team unless greatly outruned.

    Specifically, you don’t want damage penetration to counter his DR. You pretty much pretend he isn’t there. After a couple of your AOEs, his taunt is gone for the match and his damage is negligible. Get the rest down and leave him alone.

    If you’re having trouble against him, a great team against most of his compositions is grog/Solaris/lily/Ferno. Learn how to use snow day effectively, have a decent bit of attack on Ferno, and all those GT/grog/lily teams are dead within 3-4 turns. No crazy long matches. No solaris rez problems. No losses.
  • xandrew29 wrote: »
    I’m sure I’ll catch **** for this, but Gotetusk isn’t all that good. You only see him so often because he’s new. If he was a year old hero, you’d see him occasionally and never even worry about him.

    He serves to make a match last longer, and that’s it. Unlike every other hero in the current meta, he has no ability to swing a match. If you have the right team to win, you’re going to win whether GT is there or not. If you have the wrong team, you’re going to lose whether GT is there or not. Each of those things just takes two rounds longer to happen if he is there.

    What do you mean? He's in most top PvP defenses right now. He basically gives your team a free turn without taking damage, so you can go all attack runes on Shade/Daeris/Zomm, etc.

    It's much more about runes than team composition; at the top, you cannot get enough damage penetration to counteract his DR. Also, at 5 momemtum, the DR is STILL 30%, which is absurd.

    I'd like to see it at 75% at 1, 50% at 2, and 25% at 3, with Mammoth Guard gone at 4 momentum.


    He’s in most top defenses because 1-he’s the flavor of the month and 2-he’s a beast. That’s about it. And even that is starting to turn. A lot of us are experimenting with lupina in particular. There’s a reason you see all the 95%+ win rates in top 100 still. Once you get a good offensive team worked out, you’ll pretty much never lose to a GT team unless greatly outruned.

    Specifically, you don’t want damage penetration to counter his DR. You pretty much pretend he isn’t there. After a couple of your AOEs, his taunt is gone for the match and his damage is negligible. Get the rest down and leave him alone.

    If you’re having trouble against him, a great team against most of his compositions is grog/Solaris/lily/Ferno. Learn how to use snow day effectively, have a decent bit of attack on Ferno, and all those GT/grog/lily teams are dead within 3-4 turns. No crazy long matches. No solaris rez problems. No losses. You might as well be fighting 4 vs 3 cause GT isn’t a factor.
  • Agnon.
  • JackHallow666JackHallow666 Member, Dungeon Boss Guru, Volunteer Moderator
    Yeah. Agnon's first ability deals bonus damage to Tanks, and enemies with high Defense. I think Goretusk definitely counts as a hero with high Defense. I hope that his first ability will be able to wreck Goretusk in an instant.
    Level: 70
    Favorite hero: Hansuke
    Currently: Waiting for new PvE content and the PvP revamp.
  • My Agnon first has been quite powerful so far, dealing instant death to most heroes , but sadly, not GT (because of the Mammoth Guard)..
  • How do you have Agnon already?
  • RocksorRocksor Member
    edited February 22
    How do you have Agnon already?

    VIP 10 got 10 tokens in the mail yesterday, and it also seems that the 10 tokens for Agnon is in the pool of free tokens to be had as a reward for completing the 35 crowns quest.
  • Hmmm I had Mangle for my Daily quest. Do daily quests change for VIP ten? Maybe only on hero release?
  • Hmmm I had Mangle for my Daily quest. Do daily quests change for VIP ten? Maybe only on hero release?

    Tokens for 35 crowns is totally random, no association with VIP levels.

    I had tsume for mine today :#
  • ICEninjaICEninja Member
    edited February 22
    If you’re having trouble against him, a great team against most of his compositions is grog/Solaris/lily/Ferno. Learn how to use snow day effectively, have a decent bit of attack on Ferno, and all those GT/grog/lily teams are dead within 3-4 turns. No crazy long matches. No solaris rez problems. No losses. You might as well be fighting 4 vs 3 cause GT isn’t a factor.

    No rez problems? How do you possibly have no rez problems with that team?
  • ICEninja wrote: »
    If you’re having trouble against him, a great team against most of his compositions is grog/Solaris/lily/Ferno. Learn how to use snow day effectively, have a decent bit of attack on Ferno, and all those GT/grog/lily teams are dead within 3-4 turns. No crazy long matches. No solaris rez problems. No losses. You might as well be fighting 4 vs 3 cause GT isn’t a factor.

    No rez problems? How do you possibly have no rez problems with that team?

    Because your thorns, wildfire, and grog damage kills all but the best runed teams before they can rez? Just leave GT (or whoever) alive next to solaris, let her do her attack-sacrifice, and then kill their last hero. Even if you get him close to dead, thorns/burn/wildfire all do damage before Solaris comes back, so it’s pretty easy to never deal with rez.
  • Sounds like an interesting strategy, Skippy... I've got Lily and Ferno at level 70, but each just 1A. It'll only take me 6 Astrals and 51 Nature Monarchs to get the last ascension for both of them... then lots of coins to level up.... ..... doable, but it'll take some effort since I'm trying to stay F2P... but it's nice to know at least one proven way to smash that annoying centaur team... good to have a goal to work towards, but i'm also interesting in seeing how Agnon pans out...

    Anybody have any ideas on how to rune Agnon?
    Gandalf would have rocked Dungeon Boss...
    the Balrog would be a fire version of Igorok...
  • Agnon is probably attack, pen, and health.
  • an all beast team with pack tactics allows for whittling down goretusk's mammoth guard, going for the solaris and then goretusk, then finishing off grog and lily(grog should already be dead from the fear+strike+snow day wombo combo
  • LafooteLafoote Member
    edited March 9
    Let's stop with the GT isn't that good nonsense. GT is a revolutionary hero that absent the broken mechanics of secondary damage would have been unkillable until now.

    If you're going conventional, Jabber can rack up counters on GT making the rest of the team much more vulnerable. However, a crappy, 3 star Agnon can one shot most of the GT you're going to run across now, so that's probably the way to go.
  • Sorry...GT was a crap defender before Agnon, and is an even more crap defender after Agnon.

    He certainly has his place as an attacker, but putting him on your D is not going to win you matches against any top end opponent.
  • Sorry...GT was a crap defender before Agnon, and is an even more crap defender after Agnon.

    He certainly has his place as an attacker, but putting him on your D is not going to win you matches against any top end opponent.

    From what I see on any sampling of PVP defense, anything above 25% defensive wins is very rare, and anything south of 90% offensive victory rate is sub-par. I wish there was better parity.

  • I put the community rune on him soI can steal his taunt and give it to shade first turn. As a bonus, all the other heroes have to attack shade and the damage usually kills or at least does some nice damage to gt.
    Awesome Farfella guy up there was created by jackhallow666^!!!
    Also, go gorgons!
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