Kai is 2 op

edited June 2016 in My Dungeon Discussion
KAI IS 2 OP! I mean like really I killed 2 of them tsume and igorok all was left was nubnub and Kai I have 4 heroes up all full hp torchy bovus Abby and therand and lost because that stupid ability you guys have him the revenge is dumb asf and this damage with the aoe- stupid asf nerf this
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Comments

  • Sounds like you need some Zurk in your life!
  • Sounds like you need some Zurk in your life!

    And probably an English class.
    There was once a savage goblin by the name of Squinch
    When he delves into dungeons he makes his enemies flinch
    Shredding wolfs, beasts, and sumo's alike
    It would be foolish to call this hero a little tyke
  • Or maybe Jabber, and Yorick!
    jg2nvhx3ow9e.png


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  • Or maybe Jabber, and Yorick!

    Never used jabber and yorrick. How do you use them against Kai teams and who do you pair them with?
  • They could fix KAI by fixing Surf's Up. The problem is AOE (as referred to in his ability description) doesn't exist in this game. Rather, attacks should be defined as
    1) single enemy;
    2) multiple enemy; and
    3) all enemy.

    Surf's up should only affect all enemy attacks.
  • Or maybe Jabber, and Yorick!

    Jabber will get oneshot by Surf's Up :(
  • Or maybe Jabber, and Yorick!

    Jabber will get oneshot by Surf's Up :(

    Yeah, if Kai is 6*, FA maxed out, and Jabber 1*, no ascensions.
  • Kai does not need a nerf...
    Just like TSUME did not need a nerf...

    I swear people ruin this game... Learn how to use heroes who don't use AOE damage.
    nzvcnw0e2k2o.jpg

  • KaceyKacey Member
    Kai does not need a nerf...
    Just like TSUME did not need a nerf...

    I swear people ruin this game... Learn how to use heroes who don't use AOE damage.

    Do you actually play the game or
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  • AceyNB wrote: »
    Kai does not need a nerf...
    Just like TSUME did not need a nerf...

    I swear people ruin this game... Learn how to use heroes who don't use AOE damage.

    Do you actually play the game or

    I play often... Why are you asking me this??
    nzvcnw0e2k2o.jpg

  • brinstar wrote: »
    Or maybe Jabber, and Yorick!

    Jabber will get oneshot by Surf's Up :(

    Yeah, if Kai is 6*, FA maxed out, and Jabber 1*, no ascensions.

    But mine is 4* FULLY ACSENDED
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  • AceyNB wrote: »
    Kai does not need a nerf...
    Just like TSUME did not need a nerf...

    I swear people ruin this game... Learn how to use heroes who don't use AOE damage.

    Do you actually play the game or

    I play often... Why are you asking me this??

    because Kai is leagues stronger than any other character. fast, immune to silence, better than tanks in HP/defense, and three abilities that are game breaking strong.

    it's laughable that tsume got nerfed, but it's also laughable that kai hasn't been. kai, more than any other game feature, makes me question if the developers have any idea what they're doing.
  • EltideEltide Member
    "Nullius wrote: »
    it's laughable that tsume got nerfed, but it's also laughable that kai hasn't been.

    I like the impact that Kai has had on the game, it has forced us away from the same old silence + disable + ae into other groups. Yes he is strong but he is also difficult to obtain and (thx portal changes) very difficult to star up. He's not listed as legendary but he clearly is in that class. When compared to other legendries like CKB and Furnace he seams just about right.

    Tsume conversely is very easy to obtain and star up and even after the "nerf" is still pretty strong. His group buff purge, damage, and damage multiplier still make him a viable option for PVP and campaign.

  • Eltide wrote: »
    "Nullius wrote: »
    it's laughable that tsume got nerfed, but it's also laughable that kai hasn't been.

    I like the impact that Kai has had on the game, it has forced us away from the same old silence + disable + ae into other groups. Yes he is strong but he is also difficult to obtain and (thx portal changes) very difficult to star up. He's not listed as legendary but he clearly is in that class. When compared to other legendries like CKB and Furnace he seams just about right.

    having a single character change the meta by himself is literally the definition of imbalanced. and the fact that kai is difficult to obtain exacerbates imbalance; if everyone is OP, then nobody is, but if only the people with Kai are OP, then the game is imbalanced. the fact you like that imbalance doesn't change the fact that imbalance is not good for the long term health of the game.

    and in PVP, Kai is better than legendaries, who typically require specific teammates to operate (Bramble with goblins, Igorok with shatter, Zomm with undead). throw Kai with any team and he makes them exponentially stronger. that works as a way to sell tokens (in the short term), but it's bad for the game.
  • CBK + Zurk = Dead Kai

    Your're Welcome.

    nzvcnw0e2k2o.jpg

  • CBK + Zurk = Dead Kai

    Your're Welcome.

    kai + furnace = uh oh.

    thanks?
  • KaceyKacey Member
    CBK + Zurk = Dead Kai

    Your're Welcome.

    Ah yes, the one character no one bothered to star previously, and another that very few have. great idea. Plus, why would I dedicate 2 characters just to kai? I might as well just run a sustain team to outmatch him.
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  • EltideEltide Member
    Nullius wrote: »
    having a single character change the meta by himself is literally the definition of imbalanced.

    I disagree. I think an OP hero creates imbalance when players with that hero are significantly stronger then those without it. Think: Pumpkin Duke in Castle Clash. Kai does not have that effect on the game.

    Kai presents a counter to a specific tactic (ae damage) forcing you to modify your attach. This is similar to the way BD/Indigo counters torchy, Ecko counters Bovus, or the furnace counters high single target damage. However, you can be quite successful in pvp offence, defense and campaign without Kai. I know I don't use him in defense, I rarely use him on offence, and never use him for campaign.

  • Eltide wrote: »
    I disagree. I think an OP hero creates imbalance when players with that hero are significantly stronger then those without it.
    your posts contradict each other. first, you said that kai has forced people "away from the same old silence + disable + ae," which is something I agree with. now you're saying that there's no difference between players with kai and those without kai, and that doesn't make any sense at all (he forced everyone away from the most common offensive strategy, remember?). which one is it? is he a hero that single handedly changes how people play or is Kai the same as all other heroes?
    Eltide wrote: »
    Kai presents a counter to a specific tactic (ae damage) forcing you to modify your attach. This is similar to the way BD/Indigo counters torchy, Ecko counters Bovus, or the furnace counters high single target damage. However, you can be quite successful in pvp offence, defense and campaign without Kai. I know I don't use him in defense, I rarely use him on offence, and never use him for campaign.
    Kai is not similar to any of those examples because he counters entire playstyles and entire classes of attacks, not specific heroes. if i see ekko on defense, i can bring igorok instead of bovus. if i see BD, i can bring indigo instead of torchy (equal indigos will survive a bladestorm crit) or go outlast team. if i see indigo, i can bring two silences. if i see furnace, i can bring a purger and focus down teammates. it's one thing to counter specific heroes, and it's quite another to counter every single caster or aoe in the game for multiple rounds, particularly when Kai can very easily be partnered with slow tank type characters, high damage dealers, or even taunters, effectively covering their single weakness (to casters) for the entirety of the battle (the length of his effects is also an issue).

    i see you're level 35 with 3* heroes and that you avoid BD teams on defense. to be honest, i'm curious as to how much PVP experience you really have and what your basis for your opinion re: Kai is. here's a suggestion, let's play a game of hypotheticals -- how would you attack the following lineups on defense:

    Kai Furnace Ignus Zomm

    or

    Kai Yoko Igorok Ekko
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited June 2016
    Nullius wrote: »

    Kai Furnace Ignus Zomm

    or

    Kai Yoko Igorok Ekko

    I've never seen either of the lineups so I'll have a go! I'd be curious to what other people think.

    Kai Furnace Ignus Zomm

    Counter: Indigo, Augustus, Furnace, Zomm.

    Indigo multi shots Ignus (Decent chance of one shotting if you get the extra shot off, otherwise you'll get ignus low), Augustus removed Furnace taunt, Furnace taunts up, Zomm finishes off Ignus, or hits Kai. (If ignus was finished off you've already won, Zomm prevents Kai from using his second ability so you can easily finish off Zomm). Assuming you had to finish off ignus, you now focus Kai while waiting for Zomms revenge buff to ware off. In 2 turns once his revenge buff from Kai is gone you focus him down. Once he is down the fight is over.

    Kai Yoko Igorok Ekko

    Now Dhaegon is the one hero I'm still missing at level 53 but I feel like he would be very useful to this lineup. That being said, let's try a non Dhaegon offense.

    Counter: Shadowblade, Indigo, Therand, Icebloom. This is purely hypothetical as I've never seen anything remotely close to this. I'd be excited to try however! Shadowblade hits ekko and gets him low. Indigo silences Yoko and starts some chip damage. Therand uses his first ability and hits Yoko hard and Igorok very hard. Igorok heals your party up because of Icebloom. Icebloom now freezes and freezes Kai, Yoko, and Ekko (Ekko probably dies at this point). Now you focus down Yoko so he never gets a stomp off and finish off Ekko if he is still alive. Igo is the next priority and finally Kai.

    Obviously both these strategies rely on landing a silence so they immediately fail roughly 9% of the time. I assume there are other and better answers! I also realize this was meant for Eltide but man I love a challenge. This is also why I love Kai! He made PvP fun XD I only don't like when I'm having to do a LOT of fights which take 10+ minutes each and thus end up having to spend 4+ hours multiple days pvping however. That gets draining for sure. I also don't like this his best counters are often other legendary heroes as I feel it kind of creates a whale club at the top that other players struggle to compete in.
  • Kai Furnace Ignus Zomm

    Counter: Indigo, Augustus, Furnace, Zomm.

    Indigo multi shots Ignus (Decent chance of one shotting if you get the extra shot off, otherwise you'll get ignus low), Augustus removed Furnace taunt, Furnace taunts up, Zomm finishes off Ignus, or hits Kai. (If ignus was finished off you've already won, Zomm prevents Kai from using his second ability so you can easily finish off Zomm). Assuming you had to finish off ignus, you now focus Kai while waiting for Zomms revenge buff to ware off. In 2 turns once his revenge buff from Kai is gone you focus him down. Once he is down the fight is over.

    lol matt.

    round 1
    kai surf
    indigo silence ignus
    furnace taunt
    augustus purge furnace
    ignus firewall or regular attack (buffed A TON -- legacy of flame increases crit and attack, plus stoke buffs another 30%) -- augustus or zomm
    furnace taunt
    zomm grave furnace
    zomm graves ignus
    --- now consider another thing about ignus: he gets legacy of flame from furnace for defense, too. i'm not sure if he'll survive zomm's from the grave (if he does, you're in trouble), but he will definitely survive indigo's opener. i've seen an ignus survive a higher level higher starred abigail charge. as point of references, ignus buffed by furnace has higher defense than a same star/level Yoko and higher HP than a same star/level julius (he's not easy to take down).

    there's going to be a lot of variability at this point. if ignus gets firewall off after being buffed by furnace, i think the defense could very well win the war of attrition (seriously, that wall will chew through 30% of your remaining HP each turn), but i think your team has a better than average chance.

    Kai Yoko Igorok Ekko

    Now Dhaegon is the one hero I'm still missing at level 53 but I feel like he would be very useful to this lineup. That being said, let's try a non Dhaegon offense.

    Counter: Shadowblade, Indigo, Therand, Icebloom. This is purely hypothetical as I've never seen anything remotely close to this. I'd be excited to try however! Shadowblade hits ekko and gets him low. Indigo silences Yoko and starts some chip damage. Therand uses his first ability and hits Yoko hard and Igorok very hard. Igorok heals your party up because of Icebloom. Icebloom now freezes and freezes Kai, Yoko, and Ekko (Ekko probably dies at this point). Now you focus down Yoko so he never gets a stomp off and finish off Ekko if he is still alive. Igo is the next priority and finally Kai.

    Obviously both these strategies rely on landing a silence so they immediately fail roughly 9% of the time. I assume there are other and better answers! I also realize this was meant for Eltide but man I love a challenge. This is also why I love Kai! He made PvP fun XD I only don't like when I'm having to do a LOT of fights which take 10+ minutes each and thus end up having to spend 4+ hours multiple days pvping however. That gets draining for sure. I also don't like this his best counters are often other legendary heroes as I feel it kind of creates a whale club at the top that other players struggle to compete in.

    Yoko's attack not being affected by Kai is currently glitched. Without it, I think your team is in huge trouble.

    shadowblade won't do too much damage to ekko, who is a lot tougher since the patch that boosted him. your general strategy makes sense, but some notes:

    - yoko has rogue hunter and if silenced, will probably go for indigo
    - igorok's damage is calculated before freeze (and icebloom's heal). if igorok lands his attack, indigo is probably dead after yoko sat on her.
    - Kai boosts all of his teammate's resistances (it's laughable how OP he is). i think it's around 25%? that greatly increases the chance of resisting an icebloom freeze.
    - ekko getting energy off and prepping for lightning storm would be very tough to overcome (your entire team other than icebloom would be frozen the second round)

    good stuff!
  • MattCauthronMattCauthron Member
    edited June 2016
    Nullius wrote: »
    Kai Furnace Ignus Zomm

    Counter: Indigo, Augustus, Furnace, Zomm.

    Indigo multi shots Ignus (Decent chance of one shotting if you get the extra shot off, otherwise you'll get ignus low), Augustus removed Furnace taunt, Furnace taunts up, Zomm finishes off Ignus, or hits Kai. (If ignus was finished off you've already won, Zomm prevents Kai from using his second ability so you can easily finish off Zomm). Assuming you had to finish off ignus, you now focus Kai while waiting for Zomms revenge buff to ware off. In 2 turns once his revenge buff from Kai is gone you focus him down. Once he is down the fight is over.

    lol matt.

    round 1
    kai surf
    indigo silence ignus
    furnace taunt
    augustus purge furnace
    ignus firewall or regular attack (buffed A TON -- legacy of flame increases crit and attack, plus stoke buffs another 30%) -- augustus or zomm
    furnace taunt
    zomm grave furnace
    zomm graves ignus
    --- now consider another thing about ignus: he gets legacy of flame from furnace for defense, too. i'm not sure if he'll survive zomm's from the grave (if he does, you're in trouble), but he will definitely survive indigo's opener. i've seen an ignus survive a higher level higher starred abigail charge. as point of references, ignus buffed by furnace has higher defense than a same star/level Yoko and higher HP than a same star/level julius (he's not easy to take down).

    there's going to be a lot of variability at this point. if ignus gets firewall off after being buffed by furnace, i think the defense could very well win the war of attrition (seriously, that wall will chew through 30% of your remaining HP each turn), but i think your team has a better than average chance.

    Kai Yoko Igorok Ekko

    Now Dhaegon is the one hero I'm still missing at level 53 but I feel like he would be very useful to this lineup. That being said, let's try a non Dhaegon offense.

    Counter: Shadowblade, Indigo, Therand, Icebloom. This is purely hypothetical as I've never seen anything remotely close to this. I'd be excited to try however! Shadowblade hits ekko and gets him low. Indigo silences Yoko and starts some chip damage. Therand uses his first ability and hits Yoko hard and Igorok very hard. Igorok heals your party up because of Icebloom. Icebloom now freezes and freezes Kai, Yoko, and Ekko (Ekko probably dies at this point). Now you focus down Yoko so he never gets a stomp off and finish off Ekko if he is still alive. Igo is the next priority and finally Kai.

    Obviously both these strategies rely on landing a silence so they immediately fail roughly 9% of the time. I assume there are other and better answers! I also realize this was meant for Eltide but man I love a challenge. This is also why I love Kai! He made PvP fun XD I only don't like when I'm having to do a LOT of fights which take 10+ minutes each and thus end up having to spend 4+ hours multiple days pvping however. That gets draining for sure. I also don't like this his best counters are often other legendary heroes as I feel it kind of creates a whale club at the top that other players struggle to compete in.

    Yoko's attack not being affected by Kai is currently glitched. Without it, I think your team is in huge trouble.

    shadowblade won't do too much damage to ekko, who is a lot tougher since the patch that boosted him. your general strategy makes sense, but some notes:

    - yoko has rogue hunter and if silenced, will probably go for indigo
    - igorok's damage is calculated before freeze (and icebloom's heal). if igorok lands his attack, indigo is probably dead after yoko sat on her.
    - Kai boosts all of his teammate's resistances (it's laughable how OP he is). i think it's around 25%? that greatly increases the chance of resisting an icebloom freeze.
    - ekko getting energy off and prepping for lightning storm would be very tough to overcome (your entire team other than icebloom would be frozen the second round)

    good stuff!

    Awesome analysis. Currently Yoko is the #1 hero that scares me the most. And your right relying on Therand's bugged AOE is slightly cheating hah

    I'm still relatively new (110 days played) and trophy count is 66,662 (So close to a very evil number haha) so there's still so much to learn! PvP is what makes this game so awesome >.< It's the only reason I continue playing despite how much worse they've made the game the past 6 weeks.
  • Let's just do this.

    Kai's Current Max Stats
    HP- 7,276
    Attack- 1,522
    Defense-2,168
    Skill- 1,501

    Switch around a few of his stats, and nerf the HP.

    Kai's New Stats
    HP- 6,000
    Attack- 2,168
    Defense- 1,501
    Skill- 1,522

    Then we take Call of the Deep (one of the biggest issues with him), and remove the defense buff. Leave it solely to providing a revenge function.

    Finally, add tank to his title, officially making him the first Caster and Fast Tank.

    Muuuuuch better :-)

    I don't know why they made him defensive. The dude barely has any armor, and he controls the freakin' ocean. How the hell does he have such low attack power?
  • KaceyKacey Member
    I just don't understand why a fast hero AND a caster (2 of the typically lowest health tags in the game) has so much god **** health.
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  • AceyNB wrote: »
    I just don't understand why a fast hero AND a caster (2 of the typically lowest health tags in the game) has so much god **** health.

    very good questions. but there are lots of questions about Kai, like:

    why is he immune to silence if he's fast?

    why does a fast hero have an aoe ability that lasts three rounds?

    why does the revenge buff need a defense buff too?

    why does a fast, immune to silence, high HP/defense hero with three awesome abilities also need to buff his team's resistances so much?
  • KidhakKidhak Member
    pfft Kai is a non event if you practice a bit. Kai doesnt hurt you if you disable or negate the others that can.

    Phemus destroys Kai, especially after Abi. I usually take a torchy, abigail, phemus, and something to suit what im up against. There are so many good single hitters to suit whatever you need.
    But dont discount aoe either
    - Therand's attacks arent affected, and destroys Igo
    - Tsume is great for dispels vs some teams.
    - Yoko for daze
    - Icepick's 20% dance still works every time the defense uses a special
    - Ekko to re-energize torchy for a second silence

    There is usually a good counter for most defenses. Not always 100% guaranteed but thats the fun bit eh.

    But you can also go the booring but usually successful outlast play. Yoko Ignus Ekko Nub. Ignus fire wall destroys teams, especially when Kai fires his second ability lol .. you WANT them to hit you twice. Takes a negative and turns it into a positive.
    Maybe a few more pennies
  • @kidhak what level are you? Cus my experience is vastly different at 70. I've tried a 6 star phemus against kai several times and he is worthless against that defense/hp that kai has. There are some kai teams I can beat with some luck and planning but there are a few that have so far been impossible. The worst so far I think is Indigo, Kai, furnace, Ekko. Indigo seems to have a really good AI and will routinely silence the hero that is the biggest threat tactically. And then If you dont kill her first turn, your entire team will be chilled and unable to gain energy for the rest or the fight. The problem with Kai is that he provides a gamebreaking amount of cover to the rest of his team. There are not that many strong single target attackers in the game, and even less that can survive more than 2 rounds.
  • Indigo Kai Ekko Furnace

    The counter I would bring would be: Kira Shadowblade Aug Yoko. Usa Kira and Shadowblade to take out Ekko quickly (Certainly before his 2nd move, but depending on who Indigo silences before even his first move), Aug to remove taunt and Yoko to take out Indigo quickly. (You can easily kill her before Furnace taunts again from autos alone). From that point it's a relatively simple fight.

    That being said I'm not level 70 and I know the scaling nature of abilities could change fights in ways I can't yet expect.
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