Team Power Does Not Reflect Actual Challenge

PvP Raids have gotten really discouraging for me lately, mainly due to runes. I have no way of knowing if an opponent is my skill level or twinked beyond any hope. All my heroes are the maximum they could be for my level; max runes I can make and yet I will find people who have 3 times my hit points or damage yet my power is higher than theirs. In the past, I would just avoid these people by looking at ascended level or stars. Team Power is not properly measuring the danger of a hero. For example, if I put runes into Kira that triple his attack, his Power rating only increases by about 10%.

TLDR: Make runes accurately change the power of a hero so you can know if you should challenge someone.

Comments

  • :-(
  • FoozleFoozle Member
    edited October 2016
    I agree with your assessment. Unfortunately there is probably no easy way to make the hero power be an accurate predictor of team strength. Different runes have different benefit depending on the hero and the stat. For example, attack runes are great on offensive heroes, but not so great on healers. So you could have the same set of runes on two different teams, and even though they'd have the same hero power rating, they could be night and day different in terms of danger depending on who those runes were assigned to.

    Also, epics have a huge impact on hero power, and the presence of an epic may or may not be as valuable as having runes that would be the equivalent power. Epics add about 200 hero power per level of the epic (just an estimate based on a very small sample, so could be different). For that same 200 hero power, you could add two heroic 3 star greater runes to a hero. In some cases, the benefit of the two runes would be much greater than the benefit of the epic -- depends on the hero and the rune types.

    The other complicating factor is that the same rune adds a different amount of hero power depending on the hero category. For example, a Heroic 3 Star, Greater rune will add 100 hero power to a bronze hero (like Zurk), but that same rune will add 147 hero power to a legendary hero. So again, makes using hero power as an indicator very difficult.

    All this comes back to what we've asked for from the beginning, which is to be able to actually see the runes the enemy has equipped. This would be a much better way to allow us to determine enemy strength. Having said that, I still use the hero power rating in my decision process. It isn't a great indicator, but at least gives you an idea within a certain order of magnitude.

    If you haven't see the post yet, you can use my chart in the link below to at least see what type runes add what amount of hero power.

    http://forum.dungeonboss.com/discussion/36831/hero-power-impact-from-runes-updated-10-5-2016#latest
  • I disagree with being able to see runes because no one would ever attack my bait team if you could be a hahaha.
  • I too disagree with seeing opponent runes.

    Isnt the game meant to be a challenge?
    I dont mind losing against something that I expected to beat, means my strategy could use tweaking, my toons need tweaking, need to come up with more creative solutions.

    .. I am all for a bit of variability and some challenge, not just rock-paper-scissors.
    Maybe a few more pennies
  • Kidhak wrote: »
    I too disagree with seeing opponent runes.

    Isnt the game meant to be a challenge?
    I dont mind losing against something that I expected to beat, means my strategy could use tweaking, my toons need tweaking, need to come up with more creative solutions.

    .. I am all for a bit of variability and some challenge, not just rock-paper-scissors.

    I'm not talking about challenge, there is no game worth playing without a challenge. I'm talking about fights I could not win no matter what I did or planned. It isn't fun to be slaughtered.

    I agree that showing their runes isn't good, but more because the UI would get too busy and complicated. Their rune making UI is already a busy mess.

    Suggestions To Fix Runes:
    1) Add all runes together and put a border around their portrait to symbolize which stat that character specialized in. So if someone gave Kira a lot of attack, he might have a sword border around his portrait. This wouldn't tell you how much attack, maybe he is 51attk/49hp, or 100% attk.

    2) Add a border around the portrait that corresponds to the tier of the highest rune they have equipped. So the border around the greater legendary rune, is around the hero. This would give you a better comparison versus your own guys. So a player that doesn't have anything higher than a lesser rune, would know to stay away from the guy with Legendries.

    3) Increase the Power value by the % increase the corresponding stat. So say 1% dodge makes Power go up by 1%, adding 50% extra HP makes their power go up by 50%. With Attack and Skill, this may not accurately reflect how much more dangerous you are, but if you put +1000attack on Yasmin, you probably have a plan to use it.
  • Kidhak wrote: »
    I too disagree with seeing opponent runes.

    Isnt the game meant to be a challenge?
    I dont mind losing against something that I expected to beat, means my strategy could use tweaking, my toons need tweaking, need to come up with more creative solutions.

    .. I am all for a bit of variability and some challenge, not just rock-paper-scissors.

    Sorry, but this is silly. People put hidden dodge runes on heroes, hide runes so HP does show them, or have runes you can see thru HP but still have no way of knowing what are.
    There is virtually no strategy you can have vs a relatively equivalent team that has a hidden dodge rune on Igor.

    Either you see runes and strategize, or you don't and roll the dice hoping your bestest team works. That's not "more creative", that's gambling.


    As for being able to see runes being hard to do, or blowing up the servers, I should point out we can now access another player's roster page and their achievement page. Accessing their gear page shouldn't be that much harder.

    At this point I suspect the devs are not allowing that on purpose.



  • seeing runes would ruin the fun of runes, why does everyone want easy wins?
  • lythstihllythstihl Member
    edited October 2016
    ferret1830 wrote: »
    seeing runes would ruin the fun of runes, why does everyone want easy wins?

    No seeing runes would ruin the fun of people who whose fun is derived from winning because they have twinked out their characters with runes and want people to attack them with no concept of what they were attacking.

    Before runes PvP was a strategy based fun game. I always hated PvP because in most games it was tricks, twinks, or twitch... use a trick, twink a character, or be the twitchiest (fastest connection, pre-programed buttons and sequences of attacks, or just really good reflexes I suppose). It was never about the game, it was about the meta-game.

    In Dungeon Boss, up till the introduction of runes, PvP was actually fun, figure out strategies and groups to beat another group, power level played into it, a better group could overcome a specific strategy, but there was strategy. Now it all about who got the right legendary or heroic runes with the right add on abilities to make them a complete surprise that can't be planned for (like adds speed) or just overly powerful.

    Power level means nothing toward figuring this out. It's just not fun any more.
    I can no longer decide from day to day what to think of this game.... and that is frustrating
    I can no longer stand the direction of this game nor the insulting way issues are dealt with
  • lythstihl wrote: »
    ferret1830 wrote: »
    seeing runes would ruin the fun of runes, why does everyone want easy wins?

    No seeing runes would ruin the fun of people who whose fun is derived from winning because they have twinked out their characters with runes and want people to attack them with no concept of what they were attacking.

    Before runes PvP was a strategy based fun game. I always hated PvP because in most games it was tricks, twinks, or twitch... use a trick, twink a character, or be the twitchiest (fastest connection, pre-programed buttons and sequences of attacks, or just really good reflexes I suppose). It was never about the game, it was about the meta-game.

    In Dungeon Boss, up till the introduction of runes, PvP was actually fun, figure out strategies and groups to beat another group, power level played into it, a better group could overcome a specific strategy, but there was strategy. Now it all about who got the right legendary or heroic runes with the right add on abilities to make them a complete surprise that can't be planned for (like adds speed) or just overly powerful.

    Power level means nothing toward figuring this out. It's just not fun any more.

    well i am not having any issues with the rune system, i pretty much never lose attacks, i have good runes because they are not difficult to get honestly.. its not like runes in general are this super rare difficult thing to get, otherwise i might agree that runes should be shown in some way or changed.. the fact i can make like 10-15 runes right now that are probably all way above average means anyone else can do the same
  • ferret1830 wrote: »
    the fact i can make like 10-15 runes right now that are probably all way above average means anyone else can do the same

    Well, no.

    Runes require excessive grinding, then gems, then gold. That's a boatload of stamina not everyone has, gems which many people are still using to star their heroes, and gold which becomes extremely rare when god runes come into play.

    YOU may have a lot of these things, but it's.. well, thoughtless.. to assume others do.
    What's more, in order to obtain such resources, people would have to shift away from hero building to rune grinding. That's something level capped hero maxxed players can do, but not a choice many lower than that find preferable.

    For those who don't have the time or energy or preference to go all out rune crazy, who enjoyed PVP as a strategic challenge rather than a grinding lottery, hiding runes on defenses is a bad thing.

  • danac wrote: »
    ferret1830 wrote: »
    the fact i can make like 10-15 runes right now that are probably all way above average means anyone else can do the same


    For those who don't have the time or energy or preference to go all out rune crazy, who enjoyed PVP as a strategic challenge rather than a grinding lottery, hiding runes on defenses is a bad thing.

    Well said
    I can no longer decide from day to day what to think of this game.... and that is frustrating
    I can no longer stand the direction of this game nor the insulting way issues are dealt with
  • I can get a pretty good idea of what I'm up against by looking at the power rating of a team. It's pretty simple to figure out if your up against heroes that were attackers they probably have stacked attack runes same with defensive heroes usually stacked out with defense or life runes pretty predictable honestly. I like to throw people curve balls like a maxed out attack runes on furnace or high defense on malice. Also I'm pretty sure one of the resident nerd geniuses has already put up a chart telling how different rune affect power levels. Hope my comment helps happy hunting.
  • FatCat69FatCat69 Member
    edited October 2016
    ferret1830 wrote: »
    the fact i can make like 10-15 runes right now that are probably all way above average means anyone else can do the same

    I'm having fun splitting hairs here, but, I'm sure most of us can make like 10-15 runes right now.

    That doesn't mean we have anywhere near enough gold to level them all up to be usable, but yay for the ability to create those runes. ;)


    Moar g0ld pleeze!
  • @FatCat69 the current gold limitations are bull$h#t!
  • It's pretty simple. If you allow others to see runes that further gives attacking teams a huge advantage (I am already against how the system punishes you for running 4man teams). Also, runes makes developing defenses fun (I'll agree attacking teams are pretty dull and not strategic anymore) but making defenses has been fun and if db allowed you to see defender runes that take away from the build up. In other words, if you're attacking you already have an advantage do you want more bandaids to carry you over the hump? Why not award everyone free 1st place prices and tons trophies then? If you lose than you lose just prepare properly next time.
  • I can get a pretty good idea of what I'm up against by looking at the power rating of a team.

    Yeah, no.
    That can work sometimes, but unless you know every hero's exact power rating for every level, there are MANY times when you can't tell if they have runes. I have boatloads of times when I'm facing teams with 1-2k less HP and they have better runes than me, even if they're about the same level. And that doesn't count hidden dodge runes.
    There's no way an Igorok 1 level below dodges my Bovus without substantial runes or runes and a spectacular rng luck.

    In fact, I find trophy count a better indicator of the runes on a team than HP. I can see a team 3 levels below me with 3k less HP than my attackers but a 30+ trophy reward on the right choice and know they have great runes.
  • jrellz wrote: »
    If you lose than you lose just prepare properly next time.

    Ahem...

    YOU CANNOT PREPARE FOR HIDDEN RUNES WITH UNKNOWN AFFECTS.

    Yes, offenses have advantages. making it a gambling situation is not the answer. And you're wrong about what would happen. If people were able tos ee what runes defenses had, they'd shy away from many defenses. What you'd see is the elite teams that can handle high end runes on defenses taking on those teams and winning. iow, not much difference. Just happier players.
  • @danac
    Again, so you're suggesting every defense should lose and should not draw in people who might think they can win but can't? With that mindset NOONE run a 4man and make every team a bait. That would be super fun!! Right? How many bandaids would it take for you to feel statisfied?
  • lythstihl wrote: »
    In Dungeon Boss, up till the introduction of runes, PvP was actually fun, figure out strategies and groups to beat another group, power level played into it, a better group could overcome a specific strategy, but there was strategy. Now it all about who got the right legendary or heroic runes...

    I feel the same way about the evolution of PvP with runes. Before runes, PvP was a puzzle to solve. Given the defending team, can I field a lineup that beats it given the heroes I have? I used the same heroes a lot of times, but I also frequently tweaked my attacking lineup and experimented with different heroes.

    Now with runes, PvP seems more about making one strong lineup that can smash almost any defense on the first turn. I find myself rarely changing my lineup. Instead I've built a PvP hammer and now defenses just look like nails.
  • jrellz wrote: »
    @danac
    Again, so you're suggesting every defense should lose and should not draw in people who might think they can win but can't? With that mindset NOONE run a 4man and make every team a bait. That would be super fun!! Right? How many bandaids would it take for you to feel statisfied?

    people won with defenses all the time before runes.
  • @danac
    You're right. However, with you suggesting for everyone to see the runes of an defense it takes the element of surprise away. At first I would agree with you but since I've been exploring other possible (and viable) hero set ups with runes I see why runes aren't visible to the attack player. Every defense can be beaten but now not everyone can beat every defense and that's fine.
  • danac wrote: »
    ferret1830 wrote: »
    the fact i can make like 10-15 runes right now that are probably all way above average means anyone else can do the same

    Well, no.

    Runes require excessive grinding, then gems, then gold. That's a boatload of stamina not everyone has, gems which many people are still using to star their heroes, and gold which becomes extremely rare when god runes come into play.

    YOU may have a lot of these things, but it's.. well, thoughtless.. to assume others do.
    What's more, in order to obtain such resources, people would have to shift away from hero building to rune grinding. That's something level capped hero maxxed players can do, but not a choice many lower than that find preferable.

    For those who don't have the time or energy or preference to go all out rune crazy, who enjoyed PVP as a strategic challenge rather than a grinding lottery, hiding runes on defenses is a bad thing.

    I have 13k gems and get about 1 million gold a day, i have gems from doing tower of pwnage and daily quests, this takes me about 30-40 minutes total, its not hard to get gems, 1 million gold from the dungeon buying 250k 2x and doing 1 gold run in that dwarf place, i do not play excessively nor do i spend money on the game and all of this is easily attainable, i am not grinding anything or spending hours a day getting these things. i never said others have the items i have, i said its not hard to get them.. the runes on the charactesr is one of the few things that makes pvp enjoyable because you have no idea what you are getting into rather than knowing exactly what you are fighting every single time.. then again im the type of person that plays games on the hardest difficulty as opposed to easy since its fun to have a challenge and knowing exactly how strong/weak a defense team is makes this game outrageously easy

    if you want to have good stuff in a game that requires time investment then.. well invest some more time? like i said i dont invest much time and i have tons of resources available to me

    you said most people are spending their runes on starring up their heros? so they can make a choice and save up their gem for runes, stop expecting everything to be easy and handed to you
  • ferret1830 wrote: »

    you said most people are spending their runes on starring up their heros? so they can make a choice and save up their gem for runes, stop expecting everything to be easy and handed to you


    It's never easy. It wasn't easy before runes.

    There is a certain set of assumptions that people make that everyone can do as well as them or make the same choices.

    You have 13k gems, at 300and change a day that would take 40+ days. Meanwhile, most of my heroes are not 6*.
    I laid out the choice most of us who are not level capped and/or maxxed make, which is that heroes need to be maxxed in addition to runes.

    Before runes PVP was not easy for most people, and there was still chance in it. So you think adding insane amounts of chance to the game makes it more fun for you, yes, but it clearly makes it more of a lottery for many of us.

    And it’s not like you high end players are immune to complaining about this– if you’re so gung-ho for a challenge and the mystery of the unknown runes, you’d be all for bringing back those runes that confer fast attack ability. Right?

    Because what many of you high end players felt about that rune is what many of the rest of us feel about the other hidden runes.

    Heck, we can go even better. Add a rune effect, ‘can only be hit by crits’. That’ll make PVP REALLY interesting and fun for you all!


  • @danac
    I feel I've said this numerous times during this debate, but how many bandaids do you want? You are constantly complaining about people being heavily runed up. Well not everyone on the top of the tier list, so why not start raiding mid or far left? You're one of those people that want 1st all the time but avoid difficult raids and still expect 1st. To be top alpha you have to beat top alpha there is no short cuts.
  • Seems to me we are just arguing between two different play style preferences. We all agree that we want a challenging PvP experience. Some people, like me, prefer to be able to use strategy to overcome a difficult defensive line up and know that if I have the correct strategy and execute properly, I will likely win the battle. Others, it seems, like the hidden challenge of not knowing what the runes are as it adds an element of surprise to the battles.

    There really isn't a right and wrong answer here. My guess is that people who are of certain personality types prefer one versus the other. I've always been more conservative, logical, and methodical (I am an accountant, after all), so prefer to be able to have all the facts and then develop a strategy around that. Others, who are more creative and right brained might prefer developing their strategy to allow for the randomness that might be present by hidden runes. I can see the appeal of both. I just prefer being able to have more information about my opponent than less.

    In the end everyone is on an equal footing, so I can adapt either way. My hope is that they provide a bit more information on the runes and level of epics we might be facing, but we will see. It is hard to tell whether they aren't providing at this point because it is technically difficult or they just don't want to make that information visible.
  • @Foozle
    Honestly, strategy left the moment runes was introduced. Majority of attacking compositions rely heavily on AoE damage regardless if kai is present on the defense or not. The guild I'm in (viral) had tons of people posting their solo mk attacks on far right raids, so explain to me what strategy you're implying because I don't see it. I'm expressing my opinion on a defense aspect. I enjoy creating different types of 4 man with tricky aspects (runes and heroes) and I'll be honest I would/will never run a 4man again if runes was shown. I also cannot see anyone who is "top of the pack" running a 4 man either while being further at a disadvantage. To each his own though.
  • 4 man defense is already enough of a penalty in its own right. The game essentially requires you to run bait if you don't want to experience massive losses in trophies with each defeat of your defense.
  • jrellz wrote: »
    @danac
    I feel I've said this numerous times during this debate, but how many bandaids do you want? You are constantly complaining about people being heavily runed up. Well not everyone on the top of the tier list, so why not start raiding mid or far left? You're one of those people that want 1st all the time but avoid difficult raids and still expect 1st. To be top alpha you have to beat top alpha there is no short cuts.

    No I don't. In fact I never finish #1. I'm in top 10 often, now less so with increased 66-67 competition. I don't raid far left all the time, and my complaints are about teams in all three slots.

    And what you call bandaids I call not being in a lottery.

    Also, phhhhhbt.
  • danac wrote: »
    ferret1830 wrote: »

    you said most people are spending their runes on starring up their heros? so they can make a choice and save up their gem for runes, stop expecting everything to be easy and handed to you


    It's never easy. It wasn't easy before runes.

    There is a certain set of assumptions that people make that everyone can do as well as them or make the same choices.

    You have 13k gems, at 300and change a day that would take 40+ days. Meanwhile, most of my heroes are not 6*.
    I laid out the choice most of us who are not level capped and/or maxxed make, which is that heroes need to be maxxed in addition to runes.

    Before runes PVP was not easy for most people, and there was still chance in it. So you think adding insane amounts of chance to the game makes it more fun for you, yes, but it clearly makes it more of a lottery for many of us.

    And it’s not like you high end players are immune to complaining about this– if you’re so gung-ho for a challenge and the mystery of the unknown runes, you’d be all for bringing back those runes that confer fast attack ability. Right?

    Because what many of you high end players felt about that rune is what many of the rest of us feel about the other hidden runes.

    Heck, we can go even better. Add a rune effect, ‘can only be hit by crits’. That’ll make PVP REALLY interesting and fun for you all!


    i am not level capped nor are all my heroes 6 star, in fact the pvp team i use most has a 3 star, 4 star, 3 star and 6 star..

    they added another layer to the game that we can try to get, its a fun addition and something else to try to improve, it is not something that is blocked by how much money you spend on the game so i am unsure what the problem is..if you want your characters to get stronger in a video game vs other people than you have to put a little time in to get them stronger, i really fail to understand what the problem is..

    as far as the speed rune, i dont know because i have never faced it since i am not level 60+ or whatever level you need and i am not even sure how it works.. i am always against runes that give a small % chance to do something, i.e. 2% chance to make this hero get haste, i do not like randomness in games
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