A Call for Transparency and Data

This is another long post, if you want the TLDR; skim the section headers.

@Eej thanks for being so engaged with the community. It’s a big job and I understand that you don’t have time to weigh in on every topic. I also understand that you’re not always able to give specifics. However, without having more information about the goals and direction surrounding the changes to the game, most feedback feels like it’s falling on deaf ears.

Tell us the high level level goals around changing PvP

Without knowing the high level goals behind the changes, it’s hard to provide the right feedback. Why was PvP changed in the first place? What metrics are you looking at to determine if your changes are successful? When will you consider PvP fixed? Are any aspects of the PvP changes set in stone?

If we don’t know the goals and what’s on and off the table, we’ll provide feedback that runs counter to those goals. All that feedback feels ignored, which is never a good feeling.

You’ve lost my trust

Despite all the feedback, despite all the appeals to patience that you’re working on it and things will get better, PvP specifically and the game in general are getting worse. Preseason 3 is widely considered the worst so far which is not a good sign.

One great way to regain trust is to provide more transparency and information and follow through and deliver what you promise.

Tell us the goals and metrics around balance and meta diversity

Balance is one area where I think a lot of data would be useful. I understand there’s a lot of proprietary data that you don’t want to reveal, but I think there’s a lot of general data, especially trying to quantify balance that would help this discussion.

Is there a certain win/loss threshold for offense/defense that you would consider balanced? What percentage of heroes see regular play? How do numbers vary across the different leagues and player levels?

Sadly balance is another area where you’ve completely lost my trust. You nerf Zen/Kozar (I’m in the camp of believing it was needed and wonder why it took so long), but in the same breath you release Koros, who is at least as unbalanced if not more so. Either the balance team is incompetent and had no idea Koros was as strong as he is, or it was in intentional money grab as players scramble to get the new OP hero after you devalued their previous investment.

Runes, the elephant in the room

Runes cause a lot of balance problems, is changing them on the table?

Would Koros be balanced without runes? He’s certainly not balanced with 3 red and 2 green slots, allowing him to stack attack.

In PvP, runes give key heroes the ability to 1shot entire defenses or key defenders. As long as that’s possible I think it will make balance difficult to achieve. Even without runes, some natural counters like pwn undead on MK and demon hunter on Astrid are probably too strong.

Test your game, and I don’t mean on the players

This is another area where you’ve lost my trust. Old bugs don’t get fixed, new bugs get introduced, old bugs that were once fixed get re-introduced. I’ve seen it over and over. The reptile changes are a great example. Drop Dead Gorgon not starting powered, despite being called out in the changes, is just amateur hour.

At this point I feel like I’m playing in a beta test. Maybe I always have been.

Make the game fun

To me, the overriding direction of the changes seems to be milk as much money out of the player base as possible. I’d rather the overriding goal was to make the game fun. I think if you did that, revenue would follow.

As you discuss changes internally, see if they pass the fun test. Instead of asking for general feedback from players, ask players if they are having fun with specific changes.

Is having all players PvP in one bracket fun? Not to me it isn’t. I doubt that it’s fun for anyone under 70 (and I’m 69). Level differences provide an advantage and unfair systems are inherently un-fun for the player with the disadvantage.

Is making the season pay to win fun? Not to me it isn’t. I’m not sure it’s fun for the top players either.

I’m not having fun

I’ve been chatting a lot with my guild about the direction of the game and the question came up as to when the game quit being fun. For me it coincides with the release of runes and epics. All the endgame content is a grind. I’ve barely touched boss mode other than the islands for epics, it just feels pointless. PvP was where I always had the most fun, and now you’ve killed that for me.

Another place where the game became less fun is the tower. Once I maxed Yorick, seeing the aether conversion felt like a slap in the face. The tower immediately lost appeal based on the new payout. It also coincided with me getting decent runes on my roster. The tower used to be a challenge that I had to plan out to complete. Things would often go wrong and I’d have to adapt. With runes, it’s EZ mode and now it’s just a chore I do each day for gems.

For me the static content in this game is boring. It gets solved by the community quickly and the power of runes accelerates that. The dynamic content of the tower and PvP has now been made challenge free with the right runes and heroes.

So why am I still playing?

Right now I’m still playing because of the community. I like my guild and I like hanging out in some of the DB chats on Line. I like it when the community comes together, like we did with the first pvp bounty quests where lots of players cooperated in setting rare heroes on defense.

I also remember the challenge and fun I used to have and still hold out some hope that you’ll send the game back in that direction. But I won’t stick around forever. I need to have some confidence that the game is actually headed in that direction and right now I don’t have that confidence. Providing more insight into the goals for changes and data that supports that direction would go a long ways towards starting to restore that trust and confidence.
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Comments

  • Well said squid. Fingers crossed ej continues to listen to players and make changes. I especially appreciate that old heros are getting revamps. Monsters, reptiles, and it seem when epics are released for old heros stats and some skills are boosted
  • I agree with most of what you said except for the tower. I'm level 63 and I dont want it to be hard. Please leave at least one thing relatively easy for me. PvP is already a pain in the derriere* (maybe that won't be censored!). I don't need more aggravation. It also has to do with the fact that I'm trying to level up as fast as I can and I won't if the tower is unnecessarily difficult.

    ANYWAY. Other than that, great post.

    Please don't throw alternative facts at us, DB. I know it's temping but you'd have much more success with the community if you were genuine. Most of us don't like to be addressed as if we were clueless idiots.
  • Very thoughtful post.
    l4Ho0K1RYjomMxwbu.gif

  • I agree with Squid, unless there is real improvement soon, there will be a mass exodus. Time to really listen to the community or I suspect many of the DB team will need to get a resume ready.

    I hear over and over from people I know normally spend money on the game, they will not be spending anymore money until things improve and improve fast.
  • Agreed. Getting a glimpse into the long-term planning for the game would ease a lot of concerns.
  • I agree totally.
    And I am sorry to tell the same ... the game has lost a lot.
  • Thanks for giving us hope @Eej
  • @Eej you have been a breath of fresh air on this forum. I don't agree with every decision being made, certainly, but I feel a lot more connected with the devs than before. At least there is information available now, even if it is not as much as we want (probably we want to know EVERYTHING which will never happen) or the answers we want to hear. Cheers.
  • I agree having some insight into what goals or plans you have for fixing the PVP issues would definitely go along way. It would help us as players to provide better feedback as well. As it stands hearing "we are working on it" is aggravating. Mostly because the changes that have been implemented don't feel like it's improved the overall PVP. I for one feel like beta PVP has been shoved down my throat these last 5 weeks, I'm burnt out. The match ups are terrible, the seasons are too long, and the trophy increase was just another nail in the coffin. If it weren't for crown quest I wouldn't bother at all.

    In other aspects of the game I personally would like to see old heros get revamped. It would be nice for them to become relevant again. Perhaps even provide more diversity in PVPing. Instead of all these new heros and epics coming out (another red hero epic, UGH!)

    The Tower is boring, I run it merely for gems. It would be nice to have various rewards or tokens offered. Maybe even have a challenge tower, where the enemies have runes. The day it happened on accident was actually kind of fun, I had to think again. The other thing I find annoying is the same heroes showing up over and over again as you climb. Perhaps it's just me, but I think they should stay dead.

    I understand that there must be a lot on your plate with the botting scandal, broken pvp, and other general issues. However leaving your player base feeling abused and neglected simply isn't good business. A game should be enjoyable.

    @Eej it make me happy to know you're taking the time to hear and address our concerns. Thank you!
  • VioletLyra wrote: »
    I agree with most of what you said except for the tower. I'm level 63 and I dont want it to be hard. Please leave at least one thing relatively easy for me. PvP is already a pain in the derriere* (maybe that won't be censored!). I don't need more aggravation.
    I intended my tower comments more as an example of how hard it is to balance the game around runes than as a request to make it harder. I either missed the day when they turned on runes in the tower defenses, or didn't notice, but since they rolled it back so quickly I don't think you have to worry about them making it harder any time soon. If they have plans for updating the tower, hopefully they'll ask for some feedback, I know I have a bunch of ideas.

    As individual players we have a very narrow experience of the game that just covers our level and how we play the game. Hopefully DB has the big picture that covers all the levels and all aspects of how people play the game and they'll make changes that make the game fun for everyone.
    Renly wrote: »
    I get knocked down but I get up again. You're never gunna keep me down!
    Fellow Chumbawamba fans unite! Now I want to go listen to Anarchy.
    Eej wrote: »
    Fair request - I am going to need some time to compile my thoughts and info. I'll put out a producer letter that will follow a similar outline (plus additions below) by late tomorrow.

    Just to reinforce - the post will include other feedback and points from the comments in the thread - not just the original post by SquidProQuo.
    Thanks for responding @Eej, I'm looking forward to the producer letter.
  • urrrurrr Member
    edited February 2017
    I said months ago runes would unbalance the game and make it hard-impassable for some.
    Balance seems to be a word used a lot,

    but with unknown meaning.
    This used to he fun. Now its turning into a chore. ..the whole game.
  • A lot of my "complaints" over the past week have come with a lot of implorations (is that a word) to Make Dungeon Boss Fun Again. Look no further than the the top guilds who seem to be recruiting harder than ever. We're talking about long-time players who weighed the fun factor as lacking when compared to the frustration and/or effort.

    I suggest you make yourselves a mission statement, DB. Remember that options -- while sometimes very cool -- are not always what the customer base is seeking. If you make the game fun, people will play it.
  • There are very few things concerning DB that I've looked forward to more than that producer letter. My biggest hope isn't that everything will magically change. It's that this letter will actually be as sincere, specific and to the point as possible.
    IGN: Xanathra
  • I anxiously await the letter to see what they have to say.
    I can no longer decide from day to day what to think of this game.... and that is frustrating
    I can no longer stand the direction of this game nor the insulting way issues are dealt with
  • This pvp system is only good for the top 100 players. And this koros is the best way to kill the game. Such a nice game direction.
  • I think they really missed out by introducing Koros. It seems like the zen nerf combined with upcoming DR (Emily) nerf would have been enough to force some creativity. It's possible some other dominant team would have emerged, but there would have been a lot more possibilities. Instead, just replace "kozar nukes entire team in one hit" with "Koros nukes entire team in one hit". I just don't understand why they would get rid of kozar dominance just to immediately replace it. What's the point?
  • BIGBEN wrote: »
    This pvp system is only good for the top 100 players. And this koros is the best way to kill the game. Such a nice game direction.

    Trust me, the game is NOT currently good for players in the upper leagues. The "game" is a painful, boring grind at the moment with largely the same defenses being fielded by each player and the nature of the current meta means that certain daily and event PVP quests will be nigh impossible for the top players in the near future.

    (The broken matchmaking until recently is the only thing which made a few of the color quests / event quests even doable for many. Now that that is fixed, good luck to all.)
  • VioletLyra wrote: »

    Please don't throw alternative facts at us, DB. I know it's temping but you'd have much more success with the community if you were genuine. Most of us don't like to be addressed as if we were clueless idiots.

    we don't?
  • @danac no we don't you clueless idiot.
    Awesome Farfella guy up there was created by jackhallow666^!!!
    Also, go gorgons!
  • farfella wrote: »
    @danac no we don't you clueless idiot.

    thanks for the reply!
  • Eej wrote: »

    Fair request - I am going to need some time to compile my thoughts and info. I'll put out a producer letter that will follow a similar outline (plus additions below) by late tomorrow.

    Did I miss it somewhere, or are we now several days late on this? Because honestly I'm not really playing much until it comes out and I can make a bit more of an informed decision on whether to stay with the game or not.
  • As someone who's sustained over 1k attacks in PS1 and 3 I am interested in seeing the frequency distribution for matchmaking.
    IGN & Line: N00BST4R
    Mauling Ogres Lv70
  • Rexob wrote: »
    As someone who's sustained over 1k attacks in PS1 and 3 I am interested in seeing the frequency distribution for matchmaking.
    Since the mini change they pushed out (which was suppose to fix the frequency issue), i have been attacked zero times. ZERO.

    i have been attacked a collective 130 times this season. currently lvl 69 in champ 2 running

    4 star kai, 6 star MK, 6 star BD, and 4 star furnace defense.
    soon™ - it's the answer to everything
  • @oredith I'd be licking my chops if I came across your defense :)
    6446728
  • I'm guessing that nothing took place over the weekend. Maybe it'll get posted today?
  • @eej since the matchmaking update PVP is unplayable. Defenses are out of control. The game is dead to me.
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